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Map 🐞: Debug output is too long, see attached file.

is this your first map

yes it's my first map

the design is good for a first although theres plenty of mistakes

for example one cloud is really stretched

you switch between angled and round freeze

sometimes I felt like round would suit better or angled. yea didnt know about some stuff. tried to figure out all by myself.

and you switch between different tilesets

the map also doesnt include much unfreeze which slows the pace down alot and makes it boring to play, a general rule is that if youre unable to get unfrozen by another player there should be unfreeze heres an example on how to do it:

theres also lots of special tile spam, try to reduce the amount of specials you use

you also include speedups in place of teleports which again slow down the pace and make it boring to play, itll be better if you simply replace the speedups with teleports instead

include unfreeze inside the teleports instead of around it, and only have 1-2 at a time heres an example:

thats good to know

still here listening to what youre saying

many parts are repetetive and boring its better to keep your map shorter than to bloat it with copies of existing parts

lots of spots are also really tight, try to give your players more room so that the map can be played in huge 10-20 people groups and so that its more comfortable in general especially for novice maps

• this screenshot too

try to reduce the amount of images you use as they increase the filesize and create unnecessary bloat your map design is ~500kb at most while your map right now is 1.02mb in size

the parts themselves remind me of something from oldschool or ddmax, try to take inspiration from newer maps such as Diversity, Grell, or Semang 3 generally all novices made after 2019/2020 are up to standards and fun to play

although i did like some of the ideas you came up with, try to playtest and polish them further

Im impressed that you came up with that lot in such a small amount of time. shows that you looked into many maps. let me answer some if I may

the unfreeze parts you mentioned are something to really keep in mind. I used those on different occasions already. maybe its good to add more. but I felt like on those occasions it helps the map that the tee got to wait to think of the next step. its novice afterall. the example you gave is a spot I thought of adding unfreeze too. so if you think its better there its possible to add. the spam of special tiles I know about that and tried to only use it if my gameplay needed it. yes there are a lot in that part but that also made this idea possible. I know what youre saying thou. its important so that it doesnt get too confusing. 3. the speeders with teleports at end. what I love about teeworlds is the part where you help others out of the freeze. to make it possible without making a part faily I came up with this solution so that both (no fail/ still helping other) is still there. if its better otherwise could be changed, but I really like the gameplay of helping others out. 4. that unfreeze in teleporter is really a great advice didn't know that. 5. the repetitive parts you mentioned. I don't want to talk against your experience but want to clear why I added these. they only exist in this form in the map. picture a is maybe the most repetitive but its something the map didn't have to this point. the second enables to swing to the fullest. third (maybe a reminder of some old times I played teeworlds) but I like the gameplay and you swing 2 times to learn it and the third is the biggest jump with a helping possibility so the team don't fail on novice. it feels to me (that's important oc) different. the fourth picture is a drag through distance (done many times in maps) but not once in my map till this point. tried to never repeat an idea. the next point for small groups I tested it many times and it works really well. for 10-20 people it might be crowded but tried to implement areas where some could wait. 20 could be too many but how often does that happen?

I know about the stuff with the filesize so I used some tilesets and stick to those till the end. felt like I needed those to make it appealing in design. could had added more but stick to these so that the filesize wouldnt get too big. 1 mb is still fine in my opinion of course. well the ones I showed the map at least told me they had fun. but of course that is only a small group of people. thank you for saying that you like some stuff Ive made. I dont want to sound rude in any means. tried to polish this map over months started in December last year. well yea its my first map tried to implement many different types of gameplay into it so you experience different stuff every corner. Thank you for looking into my map

fixed those teleporter issues that the bot mentioned. + fixed placements of teleporters that Cammodude mentioned and inserted unfreeze into them. + added unfreeze at the start that Cammodude suggested to me through the screenshot

worked on some advices that Cammodude mentioned. one cloud was streched so I fixed that. To raise the pace of the map like Cammodude recommended I have inserted about 40 x unfreeze-areas in different spots in the map. Now no Tee needs to wait if no one can unfreeze by hammer.

Hey there, I can tell you put a lot of effort into this. Good job on making everything work and even using envelopes! 😄 However playing it, it felt heavily outdated. :/

I'll point out some specific issues:

1. Repetitive hammers for both players.
2. Repetitive swings/jumping through freeze.
3. This was rather annoying to play and not fun.. ^^'
4. You can see parts like this often on old maps and just repeat them until you get the timing right isn't very fun.
5. Interesting idea but not well built in my opinion. Dragging people through 1 tile corridors doesn't offer much gameplay wise.
6. Using random special tiles usually doesn't make for a good part.
7. Same as 6.
8. The hammer below is repetitive again.
9. Four times basically the same hammer.. :P
10. Also not a fun way to use/play with live-freeze.
11. In my opinion this also gets very repetitive. Creating a jump and then repeating it multiple times.
12. Pretty much four times the same hook again.

This map would've probably been easily accepted in the old days but nowadays it's unfortunately a decline. Some reasons are the lack of flow, outdated gameplay, repetitiveness, and overuse of special tiles. I hope you can see this as a learning experience and won't feel like you wasted your time. 😅 I hope to see another map from you in the future! If you have any questions about mapping you can always ask in

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Mention:

hey there cateyenebulous. I followed your guides in several threads over the last few months. Always appreciate your detailed explanations for parts of maps. Well yea I put an huge amount of time into this. Im really happy to get your opinion on stuff and wanted to read from you since building it. but didn't think it would be a nightmare for me. the problem is I don't agree with you on all of your points so I can't build what youre looking for. let me explain why. 1. you call it repetitive, I think its a nice gameplay because you can do it with a good pacing. 2. I agree with you on this. its repetitive and oldschool and could be changed to improve it. 3. youre also right. it can be annoying. its not easy to create a new gameplay within the boundaries of teeworlds, whats already done and whats possible for novice after all. (I could increase the space then it would be a bit less annoying or reduce the length by reducing one floor. but I wanted the player to build a tactic over the floors. 4. this part is something I inserted very late into the map because its unique that you're falling. I agree with you on that but is it really that hard to do for a novice that he need many attempts. also you have the option to hook right and help your friend (falling down on you). I included it because it's another type of gameplay (falling + timing) 5. in the end all is drag and hammer but I can agree with you on this (problem is you need to see what youre doing and all I build should be in hookable or in view. thats why its 1 tiles. 6. again a different type of gameplay (I agree with you on it that it can be feel out of place there.) 7. the same reason: a different type of gameplay 8. Maybe I'm playing the wrong maps but this hammer below gameplay is used heavily in maps. I tried to implement it in this map but also tried making it a little less annoying . I feel like it's not bad. 9. this shares the intention part 1. to me it's very quick in play.

10. I for myself never seen this type of gameplay also that is working for novice too. I feel like it's good because again a different gameplay in the map. you can't softlock and thats really risky when using live freeze. 11. your'e again right here it's repetitive here. but is that bad? you said yes it is. I feel the flow by hooking through it and thats why I thought it was a good idea to build it like this. by this point you're holding space in this part the whole time and thats also again the different gameplay I tried to use. make the player play the game different than before by let the player hold an additional button. it creates a different feeling to me. 12. I agree with you on this 100 %. it was the first time I used hooking through a spaced wall, so maybe I'm wrong here but I introduce gameplay to the players. the first 2 are to learn it (novice) and the 3 and 4 you really understand it. maybe novice isn't ment for player that started the game after all? then I did get it wrong. Please don't be offended by my argumentations. I know you got a lot of skill in reviewing and testing maps. like I said I followed many map threads over the months and it was always a blast reading what you said. Of course I feel really deeply sad now. on one hand because I don't feel like its a bad map but on the other hand that the time I've spent with the game the editor was for nothing and it was really an huge amount of time. I got to say I have more fun with this gameplay than some of the newer maps, not that this map is better only that I enjoy it more. (maybe biased but of course I build it like I wanted it to be). so the reasons you give me for declining. some word to that. lack of flow (I don't get it), outdated gameplay (maybe I don't get what that means either), repetitiveness: thats true on some parts (most times it's done so that the player get introduced on novice to a gameplay and has 3-4 tried to actual play it before the next comes.

I feel like you're not wrong here but it's not black or white either. the last reason is overuse of special tiles: again sorry maybe I'm the one that is wrong here but what does it mean to overuse special tiles. it sounds like it means don't spam it. so did I really do that here? To make a gameplay possible you got to use the necessary special tiles. It's not that in a part the special tiles are random put together but at least I tried to place them with a clear idea in mind. I really like you catseyenebulous because what I've read by you over the last months in several threads and it brakes my heart to read so much critism on my work here. Tried the best I could to make a map for beginners to start enjoy teeworld like I did many years ago. Thank you for saying that you notice that I put much work into it. I don't think I will do another map because this here already exhausted me and because I feel like I don't really get what you mean by some of your points I can't do any better than this. Thank you for looking into my map here.

today Ive spent many hours on working to improve the lamest parts. so to complete it I post a screenshot of it. I know it doesnt really matter now. (before and after)

Hey

we understand that you're frustrated with the result. Having a map declined that you've worked on and spent some time on is not for the weak. However, please note that we must ensure some sort of quality for players when releasing maps and therefore can't just release everything - we hope that you can understand even though this probably doesn't make you happier.

To me it seems like you agree with catseyenebulous who did the main test to the biggest extent so I can't really understand most of the criticism. Let me try to clarify some points anyway. To 6 and 7 (special tiles): You're not supposed to use special tiles just for the sake of using those. These should be well implemented and well... allow for something somewhat special. The use you made of those is just not innovative and also outdated. Special tiles are generally mostly not a thing to strive for. To 8: The maps that feature parts like this are mostly very old - our standards are higher nowadays. Make sure to check for the release date of a map when trying to take inspiration, this is important! Additionally oldschool and DDMaX maps are always old and therefore outdated! To 1 and 9: Parts being quick to play doesn't mean that it's less repetitive or more innovative. It just doesn't offer a value to the map.

The rest I think you simply agreed on (mostly).

Let me give you some advice based on that message: I think it'd be a good idea to try and play some more maps to gather more and more experience in this game. Figuring out what's old-fashioned or modern is very essential and quite easy to get when just sticking around and playing more and more maps. As said, focus on release date and server type. You might also want to check our newest releases (https://ddnet.org/releases/). The same honestly applies to flow too. Anyway, your effort and time spent was not wasted at all! This is great groundwork for a big and bright future as successful mapper. So good luck!

freezestyler it's good to hear some more thoughts by you. well I can understand his reasoning why. but what is fun to play differs highly between players. why not add maps and players choose what they want to play. I was all in to improve parts in the map that need improvement. although like I said I guess we have different views on how gameplay is fun or how to introduce something to players that haven't played many maps before. at least I always try to remember how I would feel at the start of playing this game. Is a gameplay bad because its done several times in other maps. No! it is only not fun for those that played hundreds of maps before. this is a novice map and I don't really notice many maps that can be played without many skills even in novice. I can play maps with moderate 3 stars or so. but I struggle with even some novice maps. I tried to make a map that reduce the amount of abilities you need to play it. means I didn't use hammerfly, no use of weapons was a decision, no permahook and so on. focus mainly on the easy mechanics. that can lead to a more simple course but it's unique. I always think I sound really angry towards you. I don't want it to sound like that, Im just sad. but I think what you think is a good map and fun and what I think should be is highly different. I started to enjoy and love teeworlds 15 years ago. I tried to make a modernised map that reminds of the old days but is more creative and feels fresh. that point you made to special tiles clears it up to me a bit what that even means. but I can't say I share that point of view. now I understand what not to do with special tiles but on the other hand I dont get why its a bad decision to offer different gameplay. like going through speeders. I always try to do something different than others. you offer this editor and you don't want me to use it for gameplay (in this style). I understand your point and arguments for those but doesnt mean they all are the one and only way of thinking.

like I said please don't be offended. I don't mean it like this. It's only really frustrating if you work on something for that long and all is done wrong. Sometimes I feel like the modern maps are repetitive by themselve because they are too similar. and that can be my feeling. but you can see the same ideas in every map again and again. you like this kind of gameplay to drag one into the freeze and through there. but I think it cannibalizes itself over time because the maps dont feel that different from each other anymore. like I said I tried to make a map that feels different and that's what you don't like or wanted. point 1 and 9 with the quick play you just gave me a bit more insight what you mean by that. I think its fun to play. if you overdo it in a map its not fun anymore. for me this is the extent I would use it in a map. maybe its also a thing that my limit of what is annoying is different than yours and you get annoyed quicker than me by a repetition. in most occasions I think 3 repetitions are a good idea for a gameplay. one is too less, because its over before you really get the gameplay and 4 is too much because it gets boring. I feel like you prefer 2 repetitions at most. And thats why I think I get why you think its no a map to publish. I kinda wishes that you would be more open to maps with different approaches even if they are not the same style. Well thanks explaining to me.

too much text

when people say theres special tiles spam its more about how many different kinds were used and less about how many were placed, e.g. using a new tile for a single part

you offer this editor and you don't want me to use it for gameplay you are exactly right, the great mystery of tw is that there are 148 tiles and you are allowed exactly 3

but the secret is that no tile is off limits, if yotu dedicate a map to a single gimmick then it will instead be creative, so in a sense your problem is really that you have too few speedups (if you wanted to make speedup map)

but special tiles arent main decline reason so you dont have to worry too much about that

holy wall of text

i can tell that you put alot of effort into thinking about how a part is going to work when making it, for example this line you said:

3. the speeders with teleports at end. what I love about teeworlds is the part where you help others out of the freeze. to make it possible without making a part faily I came up with this solution so that both (no fail/ still helping other) is still there. thinking about parts beforehand is a good mindset, although youre making the part the wrong way, for example the part from the quote: only rarely have i seen novice help people out of speedups, they typically ignore the frozen guy if hes not perma dead, plus the part itself is really tight for a novice to attempt a save, making it really hard for them a better way (although also not perfect) would be to include two layers of hooktroughs at the bottom, one for the people that havent yet done the part and one for people that have done the part and if you still wanna include the speedup thing you should instead include draggers from the switch layer that activate only after x seconds of the guy staying frozen

if youre making novice you should instead be thinking about how the part is gonna work if the person playing it has to take 3 seconds to make sure his hook is lined up properly

you can say thats really a truth. I already kinda dedicated this map to something (I ignored some special tiles like weapons or unlimited jumps, unlimited dragging, these shooting elements that shot either freeze or unfreeze on the player, bullets that freeze you, switches) I tried to focus only on the main stuff. hooking, grabbing and hammering. so in a sense that is the core of that speedup part where you hook through it. in a way its a gameplay that has different special tiles in it but focus on the hooking as a gameplay. So we have the same idea what is good only that I thought it's ok to offer a bit more. I didnt even use the speeders once to get speed to jump over a gap or something like that. the dragging laser the focus here is on dragging out. thats why I only used it in this single occasion and never again after that. I used the special livefreeze part because the essense of the gameplay is that you cannot move only hooking or hammer is possible so that fit perfect into my focus of the map. I think it doesn't help a map either to use many different special tiles it won't fit. thank you for your response this helps me to understand. I feel like now I get more what the problem is at all to that topic. yea youre limited to only kinda 3 different tiles and have to work with these only but make unique parts.

hey cammodude great to see you. yea put much thoughts into what could and couldn't work. and I wasnt either happy with only fail or teleporters that makes helping unnecessary at all and lead to a part that feels more like you do it solo without teamplay. and to drag someone out while making sure its unfailable are nearly impossible to combine. maybe I was wrong I was in believe and thats maybe the problem that players would help others out especially if they are this deep into the map working together to advance. if so of course its annoying that you need to wait to get a new try and I wouldnt include it then anymore. thats why the speed of these speeders is that little. its between waiting too long if no one wants to help and giving a chance to help. I didn't think that most players would ignore you or that they couldnt do it on novice and if thats the case of course its better to just use teleporters for sure there. this argument would have easily convinced me to change it to teleporters only to make the part better. I kinda did the two layered version on that single occasion too because in that specific part you can use a "shortcut" if one made it to the top and players could skip it with the cooperative helping spot on top. the solution with switch layers that activate only after x seconds if the guy staying frozen is a good idea. the only down of that is you got no indicator how long you got time to drag them out. (maybe there is. I had problems with understanding how switch worked in the editor but I felt that by adding switches too it would be too much special tiles. so I was aware of that too only that I thought it's ok to add more than 3 if the focus is still in hooking and hammering. sorry for the holy wall of text Cammodude.

here is my thoughts of the helping process in red. the multilayered aspect. only to show you what I thought of it

but I felt that by adding switches too it would be too much special tiles yeah but ive seen lots of people use switches to make parts unfaily (mostly in dummy maps), i think its an acceptable use case

the only down of that is you got no indicator how long you got time to drag them out. you can either put text in the map (which nobody will read or understand) or make the timer long enough that someone that got the game yesterday has enough time to save

I wouldn't want to discourage people from using "special tiles" ever, a few of my all time favourites utilize them. The issue is mostly 2 things:

• They're used everywhere which tends to feel messy
• They're used to "help" players but in reality they're just used so the part is easier to map/fix, so instead of changing the gameplay part people slap stoppers/draggers/buttons in them which often feels lazy. See cats screenshot Nr. 6

Edit: horrible grammar, phone hard. Hope it's understandable xd

yea its not easy to get the right amount. I think if the timer is too long and the one in freeze don't get it that something is happening he either is annoyed and asks why he isnt helped out (even for a short amount of time) or is annoyed that he needs to wait that long for that timer to end. yes I experienced it with many editors (worked with some) no one ever reads text in a game. you can repeat it twice or 3 times it won't get to the player. So the difficulty is to build the map in a way it transfers what to do through visuals only. I think that both solutions like you also said are no optimal. so I would stick to teleporters only because the only downfall to that is it lacks the part of cooperation that helping out gives the players. but is less annoying and somewhat the easy way to do it also.

i think you could get better cooperation with a laser part

nice to read from you melon. yea my most favorite maps also uses special tiles in different ways. the thing is its extreme difficult to use them the "right" way. the reason if done well the map gets good is because the map stands out between many other maps that share the same basic idea over and over again. I agree with you that its very complicated to integrate them into a map without it feeling messy or making it an easy way to fix a part with stoppers etc. screensot nr. 6 is indeed in my map an example for such a use. but I knew that its like this so that was the most I was willing on doing that gameplay in the whole map. thought doing it once gives (for a short time) a different gameplay for hooking. the second player can even help the one stuck to get out to the bottom too. dont worry I can understand all youve said and its understandable. I posted this map here to not only get it published but also to improve it more and if screenshot 6 is a problem in a map that I didnt see there were plenty of possiblities to change or delete the special tile there. I share the opinion that it feels kind of out of place in the map. only wanted to make it a bit more varied

ok if thats how it is. I would stick to that instead of my solution because in the end you got the better understanding of this game than me. and I dont dislike this idea either.

^^ keep poking us for feedback, that's what we're here for. If it's about the testing process you can find us in

,

if it's about the editor :)

hey cammodude what are you saying to my last part that I reworked. I think its more what you wanted? what I want to say is the stoppers there are there so you can drag or hammer better because the tee on a stopper is much easier to drag than on a hookthrough element. I tried to make sure both players have the same amount of time doing something. the hammerdown part was a new idea I came up with and to make it less annoying I used the stoppers below. I know the space is an issue but 1. its a part in my already existing map and 2. you need to hook someone and see them without zooming out so of course that leads to me thinking you need to build it like that. I also want to know what you think of the part overall. the two parts that replaced the least exciting part of the map youve mentioned

thats nice of you. I think Im done with making maps. if theres a slight chance Im not its good to know that I can ask you all the stuff in meta testing and mapping and I appreciate that chance a lot. thank you for this

i got confused when you mentioned blockers and i realised you were talking about stoppers

block is a separate gamemode

oh no I ment stoppers

yea my mistake

because they kind of block the way youre going through them or trying to.

but yes stoppers

and a few of my favorites avoid them completely, what does this even mean

the problem is they're used everywhere, so the solution is to not use them? your favorites must not use them much either

I wonder if you purposely misunderstood what I wanted to say

and the dragger in screenshot 6 is used to change gameplay, it's not some antifail

why

i disagree with what s being said unless i misunderstood

I don't see where I encourage not using them or say my favourites have to

I encourage good use

I may answer late, feel free to put this into

, at work and just got the noti

it's implied

The issue is mostly 2 things: They're used everywhere

what's the opposite of using them everywhere

I have a different perspective on special tiles where it's okay to put them everywhere as long as mapper is consistent at sticking to that tile

in terms of this map, I would say part is cool but the speedups are simply acting as stoppers, which makes them redundant with the actual stoppers. you might as well replace one with the other to make it less "messy"

e.g. the ones at the bottom aren't doing anything and could be easily removed, and the ones at the top should be replaced to bring it in line with the maps identity

also you don't need to compromise on your idea of cooperation and settle for tele

you could just leave it as freeze and make it easy savable, so the map would be ""faily"" but encourage helping tees

u should look at how mapper uses fillers without tele in this map to let tees save each other https://ddnet.org/maps/moyu

but ofc that map is moderate, so maybe cammo is right and in novice ppl don't save each other

hey jao thank you for this. yes this is my first map and I worked around problems that the editor gave me. I didnt know better. yes in this case the speeders are unnecessary and I only used them because I didnt know that stoppers do the same. I thought the tee lies on the stopper. and the speeder is so the tee is always on top and you can hammer it much easier. I dont use speeders in this map to create actual speed only to rearrange tees spot in the map or to make a part unfailable. if I know better how to build this part with input from you I would change it. I dont need speeders at all if theres a different way of creating the same gameplay. I used stoppers to make a tee more "fluid" if its dragged and speeders to set it into the right position or like the top red circle in the picture to make it easier to hammer through a wall. my part with the compromise of unfail that youve mentioned was failable for a long time. I changed that because I read that you need unfailable parts in a novice map so I tried to create this compromise. I was a novice for quite a time too years ago and I had much fun saving the others out of the freeze. this is only my experience but for what I can say often its so that there is one good player helping newer players to get through a map especially after the 1/3 of the map. its what I noticed many times by playing. I cant talk for others thou and if cammodude is right and they dont do help. I would go with only teleporters there. its a lot easier to build but lacks the part of cooperation. Iam more than willing to change stuff up to improve it. I only lack the knowledge here and there but I had a clear vision of what this map should be in terms of gameplay. I limited myself to only use specific special tiles there are many more. all in this map comes to dragging, hammering and hooking. this gameplay never changes even if I use special tiles. maybe you can accomplish some gameplay in other ways that I didnt notice. thanks for your input.

the reason I used those speeders on the left lower red circle was to make sure the tee dont gets dragged in some way through the "hammerdown" section. and also to place it perfectly below to hammer. because I can only see what is possible on my skillset which is moderate 3 star or so. I know by making it like this there is no way of cheating it even if a really skilled player is with a group. if the gameplay doesnt need speeders because there is another way of doing it without them and I know it I would delete them if they are problematic. like I said I never once used the speeders to give the tee speed to jump over a huge gap or something like that. because I felt too that this wouldnt fit into the maps concept

in this example here I tried to give a specific gameplay that uses many special tiles yes but if you play it and only see this here its not that confusing. tried to let what you see give you an idea what to do not the opposite. feel like part of the dont overdo special tiles comes from players that play with entities off all time where you dont see te design at all. then of course it would be much more likely that this is confusing. and then I understand much more why its important to avoid it. the second picture shows the problematic one. later I reduced it a bit in the third picture. I think this is by far the worst screenshot of special tiles in my map. this isnt my first editor I worked with. In some games there is also a ping problem and if its a bad ping it can be that a player jumps through a special tile. thats why I added 2 symbols of doing effects next to each other to make sure the effect is really activated. if this is not a problem with teeworlds there is no need for double layering.

https://tenor.com/view/fire-writing-gif-24533171

Even in here its so easy to fix the entity spam 1) remove the arrows which align you with the wall - you already made the walls hookthrough so why add them 2) if you are afraid that they wont know that they need to hook before hitting then make the fall 2 blocks wide so they have to hook 3) remove the arrows on the right as well and instead make the freeze 1 wide (if you decided to make the whole tunnel 2 blocks wide like I suggested then just let them learn how to hold right while frozen - they can just stack tees if they dont figure it out)

I dont even wanna look at the rest xD but please try to solve game design problems without spamming unnecessary stuff

And plase make your answers a bit more concise, I imagine testers dont really want to read a wall of text after every feedback xD

thanks for this solution gazebr its possible and a good advice. I made the wall hookthrough because I dont trust game mechanics that they work 100 % of the time. I added 4 layers of speeders to make the tee lie to the left. one is enough to make it work. its only safety that it really works all times. why did I do this here how I its done. novice again. the game doesnt really give you any clue that you can lie in the same single block spot to the right or the left. its only through knowledge. so I made this part exclude the process of hooking. but many others might be confused so also for those its still hookable too.

Thats why I suggested to make the tunnel 2 blocks wide - they will land so far from the wall that there wont be any confusion

yes and I say its a good idea that I didnt think about. it would be a solution to both problems

Alr then

Also idk if you just turned off the design in the first screenshot but if these arrows really are invisible then its a huge problem

its only in the editor I guess

the arrows are a different tileset that I didnt deactivated in the screenshot

Ah I see, fair then

I tried to make it similar to the other screenshot from the testers. and failed 😄

Did you want to make both the design and entities visible?

the hammersymbols etc. also dont exist here. so its only that I didnt deactive all symbols for the screenshot by me

You can open you map on local server and screenshot it while in entities Tho if you need the actual editor look then yeah no other way

thats true

here is how it would look like as an example

Much better already I would also make the top of the hookthrough flat, but thats not important The real problem is that I assume most of the map is like that :P

in many occasions I dont choose the easiest option to do the same because I didnt know better. that might be true but could be fixed if the gameplay is alright in the first place. you showed me a good way to do this part. I overcomplicated it

I dont think in absolutes like that. i also didnt intend to say using them everywhere is bad, sorry if my wording implied that. Exceptions confirm the "rule", see Diversity for example, which uses stoppers on every second part. But they're (IMO...) used properly to assist gameplay for new players as a failsave and enhance flow, or cryptic (which is a puzzle map tbf) that uses basically every single "special tile" the game offers.