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https://ddnet.tw/testmaps/?map=4Beginners

This seems like good 1* map

the name 💤

NOUIS

im still gonna probably add the hammerfly tutorial animation once

is done and if she allows it

working on it! almost done

played this map with bumm... i got the feeling this map was mapped in like 30 minutes or so, parts r not well mapped in my opinion some things i dont understand... like tp18 (why) - just delete the wall between^^ also i dont get the entities "hammer on" sign, a player who dont know that he have to hammer there dont know how to turn on entities xd there are much more stuff that are in my eyes not thought out (catch me ingame if u wanna know all stuff) its still a good novice map, but i think theres much more room to make this map better than it is atm

what makes you feel that way? tp 18 is there so there are 2 walls to fly up instead of 1 so it actually makes sense hammer on sign is something i can remove and totally optional - it does not affect map quality in any way

map doesnt seem too bad thruu the preview

if ur putting information texts like "Hammer!", you shoulud also say "1 tee here" or something with an arrow pointing to the drag part

or else they mightr be confused where to go

as going thru the drag part leads to a tele which nobos will not know what it does

I like it

did what louis recommended at parts where i think it made sense i didnt want it to be a complete tutorial map but yea also removed all entities off signs cus of said arguments

also 30 minute argument is kinda cringe when you cant give meaningful examples

i personally dont really think the map 4beginners fits if its not meant as an tutorial, but since there are so many maps with similar names, i guess its fine

name*

^

idk as of the newest upload i think most parts are explained except basic movement

or atleast hints/directions

i don't remember if i ever played a game without trying to find out what right click does

maybe we don't need to explain that xD

yeah i guess thats fair. in the current state the new players sadly dont go through some basic quick tutorial where they get taught that they got a hook and doublejump

but yea i dont really mind namechanging the map xd

but i think it's alright

pls put unfreeze on the ground man this part will be annoying af in a speedrun xd

lol even with unfreeze it will be annoying

i can add unfreeze and make the ceilings hookables i guess

make alternative way with 1 long 1 tile gores

but i kinda want noobos to move instead of flying thru

xd

wouldnt 1 tile be way too hard?

its kinda long

what about 3 tile

or 2?

2_?

like that?

well problem is that the part is luck based in a speedrun if u hit the bullets or not xd and the gores thing, its longer and harder xd

i think u should delete it lol

idk the part somehow shouldnt be luck based whether u hit the stoopid bulltes or not

it's only luck based for speedrunners tho

your version doesnt make sense because it's faster to luck through the bullets

yarr

idk man

screw speedrunners

maybe add like a tight thing with freeze

freeze with perfect jump timing required

or nearly perfect

and good swing

it's not too hard for speedrunners, but beginners wont do it

hm

and unfrezee xD

so bullets dont hit you

idk that's too messy

im just gonna do the bullets sideways

so pro can jump up higher

to basically skip them all

huge brain

Knusux

Konsux

u

should be better for speedrunners now

version with "Synchronized" checked

ty ty

added it to the hf part (gonna keep entities off there!)

you will have to replace it with fixed version because I forgot to flip the chain and it's buggy :(((

fixed

some stuff i found or i would change:

also in editor #2 stars looks weird when u jump^^ (maybe change paras there)

in general i dont understand why stars move more then the moon, stars r in RL far behind the moon xd

and the last thing i would like to mention again is the entities "hammer on" sign, i still think thats not needed there (if u know how to turn on entities, than u know that u have to hammer there)

but its a nice novice map, propably 2-3* 🙂

fixed saaviks animation, ty once again ^^

1. added unfreeze
2. no i want speedups there so noobs will learn to countermove and if they dont they will land in freeze (it's still unfaily no matter what)
3. i used unfreeze there as a tool for speedrunning, so speedrunners have to get more speed than noobos to get unfreeze 4 & 5. same here, i want pros to unfreeze their mate if they want faster time
4. yea 1 is enough but why have 1 if you can have 2
5. i specifically placed the shields like that so noobos will autoswap to shotgun and shoot with it - it also makes more sense to have a specific "shotgun box" as it is easier to understand that you have to use shotgun here
6. same as 2.
7. again speedrunning tool

i like stars as they are no way this map is novice 3, it's novice 1 as it is right now

are you online? we can test the map together

yep im here

this map is in no way 1* lol

looks like a good 1* to me xd

definitely 1 star

1*

we made it even easier at some places

and less faily

so it will be closer to 1*

I mean, we are here to fix the maps, just help making it 1* then

testing sesh with saavik

hf should be unfaily

it's only unfaily when 1 tee falls left and 1 tee falls middle which shouldnt happen in 2p teams and in 60p teams is pure fiesta anyways

it shouldnt happen in 2p teams but it can happen easily since its novice

hard to fail now, but still possible cant come up with a better solution

even if 1 tee is left and 1 tee is middle u can still hookfly up (yes no beginner can do that but beginners tend to play in t0 where theres big groups going on all the time anways)

the truth is

sunny side up, learn to play have some problematic parts

but they can still finish it somehow

they aren't stuck forever there

tsunami also - the wallhamer part with stopper

but it's not impossible

newest version btw after all the testing with saavik and some others

it should be pretty ready now

we changed quite a lot

imo we should make novice maps unfailable and doable. i don't like our speedrun ideals (like not changing released maps too much) and stuff, because the most important stuff would be to create maps in a way, that 2 new players can finish them. some people are like "oh let's start playing this multiplayer game together". if they download this game in like 1 year and there are not many other beginners to play with them, sunny side up might be too hard for those players.

well some like to play hard games, but i guess most people are not like that and it would be much better, if our 1* maps are as unfaily as possible.

its unfaily now

$ready 1

I think it's 2*+

Like tsunami

tsunami is harder than this

20+ ppl told me they think it's 1*

did you see the newest version

?

Tsunami Definitely harder and 2*

This seems good for 1

played again.. its 2*

I agree on 2*

make sure people dont forget the tees who go the top way

Sorry for noticing it too late. They maybe wont understand, why they lose their weapon here. I don't like invisible shields on novice. Maybe just my opinion.

real news

made shields visible and i think its hard to forget ur mate as you have to move quite a lot and then even jump into freeze for it to be a fail and ye apparently it's not 1* anymore

Maybe adding speeders to that part would be good as you could not fail then

but its your choice at the end

this is never 2

it's 3*

grenade part is way too hard btw

then sunny side up is mod 1

if this is 3

just doesnt make sense to me, that a map with a part like this can have the same rating as this map - but yea idc bout rating, yoinking free points

no release :(

someone said 1 before the test, and later someone else said 2-3

but we made most of the parts even easier so it should be 0 and 1-2 now xd

what gives you the avergae of 0,75*

:)

idk how you would compare a grenade jump to a normal jump

we can vote between 1 and 2

ravie your part is a faily doublejump where it's hard to save others, i guess that's what he meant

I had a hard time doing his grenade jump with a single nade

okay then nerf it

you can make the grenade part even with 200 ping just by keeping shooting running and jumping in random moments

and you would still do it

you should make it just not possible to do a normal jump over

instead of saying this map is too hard for 1 you shuold tell us which parts are not 1 so we can think about some changes imo

are we talking about the same things? .-.

could be easily 3 tiles shorter and still need a grenade

two 10 tile jumps in a row are rough for beginners

two 10 tile jumps in a row are rough for beginners

yea I was thinking if we should lower it so you don't need to make 'perfect dj"

8 tiles is a nice dj height for noobs

9 was a big tough

but finally give some examples instead of "this is never 1*, bye"

that's not what I said

I didn't say you did

then why say it

? because ppl said it

yeah but not me

................................?

I didn't say you did

I mean

you keep saying "this MAP isn't 1*" when in fact only like 2 parts are the reason

for example

idk, need to make the hammerfly easier? how? endless hook would be stupid? xd

is there a spot so faily 90% new players will fail?

should replace those arrows with stoppers

and remember they don't have to make every part first try or in max 10sec

ppl are doing great on the maps we have now

f4 theres like a 50% rq rate

I mean they keep trying

i think the current 1* maps are fine

just remove the others from perma novice server

maybe a sign "tee with a hook" showing you should stay away, in the corner and hook him instead of getting close

would it help

the arrow is fine and

had a reason for it + it's mapper "style", we can't force mappers to make standard parts always the same way

new players are super patient from what i've seen, they dont have to first try every part

for example someone would put unfreeze bullets and you can say wtf just make normal unfreeze, same effect

noobies don't really know to walk away when they hook, they might keep getting frozen

they will maybe notice they're doing something wrong + often there will be better player to help them by unfreezing or hooking him away or just making it for him xd

it's their problem

I would be ok with 2s freeze to since noobs won't notice the difference between this and "normal 3s" freeze

bad mapping is not the player's problem

no i want speedups there so noobs will learn to countermove and if they dont they will land in freeze (it's still unfaily no matter what)

this is ther eason i want speedups there

has NOTHING to do with bad mapping

if you as a tester dont get my intentions

I get your intentions, but freezing them over and over again is not the right way to teach them something

they might not even get it at all in the end and just take forever

but how do we know who is right

are you 100% sure they will just walk in with every hook and keep doing the same mistake for 30min?

maybe they wont get it at first or the 2nd time eventually they will get it at the end of the day we are experimenting

and thats the point of this map

because I think it will happen for sure but also think they will avoid it often

or rather this part

can we just try releasing it with speedup and if this will be a huge issue - replace it?

it won't affect pros gameplay at all because pros and normal players know how to drag someone out

ye just start releasing more novices plz

and remove the hard crap from perma novices

here you might even pull him back and you're basically screwed

nobos arent THAT stupid

they have some basic knowledge of which direction to go

I wouldn't bet on it

You'd be amazed Melio

it's just the experience i've had the last couple of days

let's just make an experiment to know it for the future

even when i played on the chinese realms where 95% are new players

I mean we learned a lot about novice maps the last days

I don't think anyone has learned just how little new players understand about this game

I mean for me the arrow kinda also show "go right" why would you go left if the arrow shows right xc

I am rly curious how they will react in this situation

ye lol now that you mention it, even the speeder points the direction

can we release map with speedups and if ppl will have big troubles with it just replace it with stoppers?

yea

I mean the arrow pushes you so speedrunners have 0,00001s advantage now xd

shouldnt we ask ravie and welf for these kind of things now

it's not about troubles, you basically can't fail it (except the pull back spot) it's just annoying

let's see it and not make guesses

just rls who tf cares

also rls other novices plz

can't just blindly release all novice maps now

its 1 little speeder and i doubt it would really cause much problems

deino is ready already

arguing over dumb things like these takes up a lot of time

why not just make an agreement

if a lot of nobos dont get it, melio can agree to change it

exactly

we do what saavik said imo

so everyone is happy

" can we release map with speedups and if ppl will have big troubles with it just replace it with stoppers?" this

you should still change the grenade jump and 10 tile jumps if you want the map to be friendly to noobs

we will have argument for future maps then to avoid it

oh yeah make nade possible w/ one nade pzl

2 nade is too advanced

if i do that

it's 1* tho

!!

!

I'm not sure, it has weapons and some "advanced" methods

2* is fine

would rather reserve 1* for something absolutely dead easy

should we reserve 1* for things like tangerine where it's really just movement controls?

absolutely

idk im just comparing it to current 1* maps

imo with almost every "feature" you can make novice 1* part

koule 1-5 are 1* lul

nade part is already possible with 1 nade

u need good timing tho

so it shouldn't be a reason to rate it higher

when even easier maps come along, we will rerate the current ones

just a basic shoot to show what it does

since

didn't make big mix of every opssible feature here

tangerine 0* xd

someone should make a dummy throw teaching map btw

with animation? :)

uhuhhhh

animations telling ppl how to connect a dummy and /team

showing players all these things (hook, unhook, freeze, unfreeze, tele, other tele, stoppers, speeders, weapons, wall hammers, 1 2 arrows) in one map is enough to make it not 1* imo

but it's not everything at once...

and

it is everything at once

everything in one short map

why don't you see the grenade part in other way:

oh there's also hammerfly

only 1 tee has to be lucky enough to go through AND HE CAN HELP OTHERS! it's coop map :)

made as easy as possible

and this is basic movement

as easy as possible doesn't mean it's 1*

I mean

you know how I see it?

wrong?

there are many BASIC movements you HAVE TO LEARN because you will use it in literally every map in every difficulty - walking, what weapons do, "gores"/climbing the walls, hammerfly, throw, maybe hammerhit, drag parts (rehooking through the corner)

these are basic things = they all should occur in novice maps (not only 1*)

compared to things that you can do as a insane pro player - aled thing, rocket/shotgun-fly, edgehook, playing with dummy, advanced hammerfly/kintafly, tricks.....

here's my take: 1 maps should be teaching people what certain things do. anything above should be applications of the learned skills. imo this map is more of a 2 to me...

we can't act like novice = only walking and hooking tees through hookthrough

made the jump part easier grenade part is now possible with only 1 nade (was even easily possible before as kicker mentioned but yea)

rerate all current 1* maps then

i mean off the bat this map has u using hook to climb a ceiling over tele before u even know what hook is

cus this is easier than some of the current 1* maps

ok

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qDyT9Ev9fqvIsoLUsXLMKAYaXQs9gjRqt5HOgtuL5RM/edit

we literally are

they should keep training the things I said

we can't have only 1 novice map with hammerfly - it must be in every novice maps so they finally learn it xD

i think 1* novices should be maps that teach only a few of those things

jesus christ how are koule 1-5 still 1*

Imo there can be teaching stuff in Moderate too, i dont think you can implement kinta in novice... why shouldnt be a Moderate teaching basic?

kinta isn't novice

Thats what i said

and it's not basic thing

it's next lvl thing

If you only mean basic things like run hook shoot etc.. i agree

you learned hammerfly on wall - nice you can learn it in open ares now - nice now time for kinta

but then hammerfly is not basic

ok guys

another question

hammerfly is a "feature" too which comes across with the basics

what is the lowest difficulty we can make hammerfly part?

probably just hammerflying up above a stopper

we tried to make is as easy as possible in thios map - by adding hookthr wall, so you don't have to hook straight down

• we added stopper on top

• it's not that long

how easy can hammerfly be?

cant get easier than here

tbh

novice 2?

hf 3*

also hammerfly is hard when everyone is up against the wall and blocks

normal hf maybe yea

but we changed the hf part alot

to make it easier

• the tutorial makes it also somewhat easier

things like stoppers and speedups all the way long, endless hook are cheats and it's not real hf...

But if you learn certain things, you do it step by step

lol whos adding speedups

and not the real deal

i think stoppers at the top and endless hook are fine

hf isnt that hard to get a grasp, just hard to master

You first have to learn how to hook, hammer and then do hf

ive seen nobos do it on tsunami w/out the little helper animation so i dont think u need assist ppl with hf so hard

so endless is a help

I don't think the tutorial is much different from just seeing someone else do it

yet they never just see you do it and know how to do it

true

there's just too much info in this map to take in for me to comfortably rate 1*

as i said im fine with 2*

free points

nice, 1 point more

climbing the ranks

maybe let's vote :)

do you really want 1* maps with only walking and idk jumoping through 1-tile-wide freeze

yes

wouldn't they feel like

nope

oh, that's all this game has to offer? xd

so cool

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no

i mean

after these nobos finish multimap 50 times

i actually had a beginner telling me he was bored of learntoplay

and all they see is muultimap

its not about the difficulty of maps

yea I mean

its about everyone playing the same stufuf

they join and they don't know yet you can vote other maps

well that's not about maps then

how many time you can just go

it's a bit sad they will change server and after noviuce 1*

see novice 3* map with 93285389590 features

we should have a quick play button that automatically puts you in a map based on how many points u have

the solution is not putting 93285389590 features in a 1* map

?

3* you mean?

no I mean 1*

I don't get it then

I said right now our novice maps are full of different features

and we will make real boring novice 1* map

hf is in most of maps and it should be in a tutorial map so people get used to it, even if it's not basic, it is everywhere and why not teach them early?

it' a bit lie

TESTING LEAD HAS SPOKEN

ok not like ravie was talking in the channel for the past 20 minutes

i agree on not adding too many features in a "tutorial" map

there is only 1 testing lead

ravie is my 2nd account

welf is my first account

sorry but since when Ravie and Welf are the leaders did I miss something? xd

yeah wtf

this is bs

since today

lets rebel

I guess welf is the bigger surprise here

let's stop the offtopic tho

I mean seriously

is it rly?

are they

are you

OHHH

I SEE

on the members list

I was away for a few hours only

what does it mean now? what's the difference between us now?

like to decline/ready maps so fast

is there a better way to teach hf than in this map? i mean do we know about it? if not, they will bump in another novice map where it's not explained like this

Maybe we should add the animation in all hf's on easy maps

no thx

there's no need for that

if you map it well, hammerfly is at worst a bit blocky

sorry but it's ridicolous that there are some changes in our group and I (tester) don't know about it xD

it just happend out of nowhere

As I said, there can be teaching maps, without being novice 1* but they could be on perma novice server or no? I mean why should be "tutorial" maps only be on low star novice maps?

because typically people who play those maps don't know the game yet and need to learn it

The difficulty shouldnt change the maps intention

possibly we could have another srv named "learning srv" or smth with different tech of all difficulty

yes but doesnt have to be connected to 1 spezific difficulty right?

if you mean making a moderate map that is a tutorial to more advanced moves, it's a good idea too

if it's executed well ofc

like this idea

thats what baby aim is right

yes in a way

baby aim is a good introduction to edgehooks

OMG learning server with mapps called "walking" "jumping" "hammerfly" blah blah

I was going to map a map to explain atleast how I do edgehooks

but there's already baby aim, anyone playing that map at least knows edgehooks exist

it might be possible to make an easier map that that but then you can't show more advanced edgehooks

i think the ddnet client should just have a tutorial that automatically starts when you first open the client

I explained like 5 people who were not able to edgehook how i do them on "easy edge" and after that they atleast were able to do a bit of edges

it could literally just be explaining how the hook works and it would be useful

I could implement that explonations to a map

yeah a map where you could just play around with physics would be good

Its kinda the same with hammerfly

You can spam hammer

i think ddrace maps arent good for first learning teeworlds

But its better if you have a rythm

let's stop offtopic maybe? 😅

...

We could discuss in tester channel but then ppl like

couldnt see

and in other channels it would go down

maybe make a channel for those things?

we need a #suggestions channel

but jesus christ the off-topic tho

Back to the map:

I dont like the placement of the unfreeze tiles sometimes

Shouldnt be the focus on novice map that new players like to play the game and not make the map speedrunable?

As a novice player you go down and have to wait 3 sec to move again.

Just add unfreeze?

Cool for speedruns, annoying for new players imo.

we didn't have unfreezes at all back then and I was pretty patient

^what saavik said

adding anything that isn't necessary in a novice map is not a good idea, it can only confuse beginners if they think they need to use it

also a mix of a tutorial/speedrun map is not good either

this unfreeze there and the one at the grenade part are the only "speedrun unfreezes" iirc

nobos wont even see unfreeze at the top

same for the grenade one

scheduled release for 15:00 tomorrow

2 maps tomorrow?

yes

content

what is the second map?

release and let the noobs play this instead of multimap

seems weird to me to release 2 novice map 3 hrs apart, i'd suggest to release this either now or sunday 🤔

ok will move deino to 20:00

Or like this xd

release :C

still 2*

this map is 10 times easier than learntoplay

yes but the hf make it 2*

no cus the hf part is structured to be very easy and once one guy made it he can help out everyone else + stoppers

ppl already tell me this is 0*

two

1

1

1

1