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https://ddnet.org/testmaps/?map=Cliff_Charge

Map :lady_beetle: :

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hardest novice ive played

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unplayable

Map channel has been moved to waiting mapper.

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Cool map! Here are a few things I noticed: the last part looks a bit restricted. Give the players more space at the top before they drop down. (Ending looks a bit rushed.)

Visual thing but maybe make it more obvious that the map doesn't continue below? (Darken the out of bound area or increase the tele tiles in width?)

Maybe remove the very left stopper tile so tees can also come back out here:

And here?

Probably more of these (just double the current setup?) would be good to have so if there is a big group they won't start unintentionally blocking each other.

Small skips.

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changed all above

ty ;D

No problem. :) A few more things I found during the second playthrough:

Is the gap necessary? It looks a bit odd. ^

Add an arrow pointing up and a grenade icon + the 'turn off entities' sign.

Add stoppers facing < to this part so you won't hook the other tee out and fail the part because then you might both jump left wall.

I can still skip this part like I did up to there. Maybe also just add stoppers <?

Also this is still skippable the same way (I like your fix though) so just extending the unhook a bit more and adding a freeze tile like that should fix it.

I think some instructions here would be good. (Something like that?)

Lastly I find the floating finish a bit odd. ^^" Maybe make it look a bit like the start room?

if you add that, it should be on this part, too 😅

Yes, makes sense. :D It's so intuitive for me now that you stop thinking about it. 😅

i don't like the freeze here, it can be annoying and it takes away space (you want space in your start area, because there will be many afk's

if you are here you don't see the ground, this is not good for novice imo, because they might not know how to zoom or /pause

i dont understand this part, right now it feels like a timewaste, there is no reason to not use unfreeze on the right platform unless you want to punish new players for no reason at all, also i suggest to use unhookables in the freeze pit (green), because it might be hard to save teammates, right now it will be hard to save your teammates (for new players) if you are below the first platform (yellow)

no unfreeze?

this is hard to understand for players without /pause nor /zoom i don't think it's fun like this. maybe you can move the wall at the right closer, so it's easier to see, that you can't go right at first, it's also not an easy part and hard to perform, because you need a very good timing

i dont understand why there is no unfreeze here, the unfreeze at the top is easy to hit for any speedrunners, so i suggest to just put unfreeze on ground, it will be less of a timewaste too 😅

another timewaste part where new player get punished for no reason?

this can be really confusing for novice players, especially because you can't even see where you will land

this is a very unfun fail (and it will happen many times if you keep it), can you add hookthrough or anything?

i can imagine this part being annoying t0 (tees blocking the hooking spot and hooking each other)

unfreeze?

this part is very complex compared to your other parts, it can be confusing, in my opinion the focus should be on mechanics, it's also easy to fail if you don't understand what to do

"both need laser" or anything?

as far as i know this solopart is very hard, you need precise timing, it can also be very annoying to lose your group, because you are too slow at this solopart

this part is hard compared to the others now, either walk off the platform, hook and dj (complex mechanics) or go from right, hook, jump and release at the perfect moment, it's harder than other parts, it's also hard to understand, if you don't know the game physics

another timewaste without unfreeze? this can be annoying t0, there should at least be more space

yup

thats why i hate creating novice maps

don't worry, it's not easy 😅

I need the opinion of a tester who will tell me whether it has a chance of being released

i would be surprised if this map gets declined

oh and i randomly found this when i went left at the spawn, i assume it's a design bug and not a light pillar between the mountains 😅

Map channel has been moved to waiting mapper.

I think it will have a good chance at being released. ^^ I know Welf and me wrote quite a bit but they are all just small changes and adjustments. Don't give yet. :)

agree ( it's also faily for noobs ) + hard

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fixed all above

thanks guys ;D

Map :lady_beetle: :

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Map :lady_beetle: :

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bruh

wtf is this bug XD

broken

Map :lady_beetle: :

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did you use any external tools, or just the ddnet map editor?

I used gimp to edit textures, then i just replaced them

that error is odd, I wouldn't expect it from the editor :/

okay that map file is kinda funny

It appeared after i replaced texture files

but that layer seems to just be empy, you could just remove it

or the editor broke that layer, one of the two the error is in the 42th layer (if you disregard the groups)

will try to fix it by removing the layer

And replace it again after remove

unless I don't have to do anything about it

yea this is an error in the bot/twmap I suppose

odd that this is the first time it happened, the change that caused this was made in march

pls entity off sign

same for this one (design gives more info than just this arrow)

in my opinion this solo has an awful flow: section 1: coming from left u have speed -> turn around for jump (lose speed) -> turn around for jump (lose speed); i would suggest you to put at least a hookable on the ground section 2 + 3: its barely possible to build up a good amount of speed in small amount of time here since u fall not building any speed. and even if u dont have any speed u will crash into the wall at the jump using a simple nade jump (3). i also think the freeze unfreeze stuff there is very useless section 4: since the unfreeze is pretty far away u lose a lot of speed not making it possible to cross the unsolo at the top right in a single nice jump without waiting to use a double nade this whole solo needs to be restructured. atm it breaks any flow in any section of itself

skip

you forgot to put unhooks here? it's okay if you don't want

missing entity off signs

its probably not faster than intended way but this is skippable (1 hammers 2 at swing)

cool map

red fist shoot rocket up go out of solo . green go do solo part and then you can skip armor and tele ability lossing it by shooting to other tee grenade .

its hard to see the difference which one has freeze in it (same on other stoppers, not just these ones)

a stopper here should prevent this fail 😮 edit: it doesnt, still think you should fix it somehow 😅

perfect place to block people in freeze and throw down to kill ( tee will not finish the map )

this doesnt flow well. should eliminate the fall and level out everything to one height

its annoying for the noobs doing this part when they run left and fall down, lose nade here, being teleported back without the nade. u should put a nother nade launcher up there

unfreezes here would be good i think

easy and fast skip here

make this area bigger pls. its really small compared to the rest of the map

could maybe map a different part here? this exact part has been done soooooo many times already. and it kinda looks out of place here xd

I think the stopper would have to go here

you mean one to the > of where you indicated it? edit: i just tested my suggestion, wouldnt work

no rocks at finish line :(

if you go back here, you dont get telerocket, so you have to grab it again, thats not intuitive imo

u didnt put anything into high detail! everything thats not gameplay relevant design (except logo) needs to be put into HD

start not fully marked but have entities, while finish same but no entity tile for finish

maybe it's fine but someone can just go without jumping

The red one facing > like I drew it. :D

you want double stoppers on that tile? that would add another failspot, if you want it to replace the other stopper there, it would change the part and should be moved one tile to the right

Another fail spot?

catseyenebulous suggested removing freeze here to fix the fail, sounds good to me

Map channel has been moved to waiting mapper.

Map :lady_beetle: :

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changed all above

thanks for another great map test

Map :lady_beetle: :

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Map :lady_beetle: :

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corner (unfreeze)

gameplay-wise map is ready to me, design wise i would suggest (you don't have to do it) add some variety to structure, it looks a little repetitive and sad in some places, screenshot i sent is an example of how you can do that (i used tiles from your tileset)

You can completely skip the grenade at the first solo.

that's a cool skip xd

Keep it?

mappers choice, i think that players who can do that don't need to learn how to use grenade 😅

its cool

Map :lady_beetle: :

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Tomorrow I will resize the map and put textures in hd

Me and Welf went trough the map again and there are 3 main things that seem impactful enough to change. The first and most important beeing this section. Currently you could block all incoming tees with one tee placed at the edge so we would recommend adding a hooktrough from above for accessibility and increasing the width of the second drop to (at least) two tiles.

Secondly the hammerfly part could use a simple increase - also in width - of the towers so that once you make it up you can stand on them comfortably. Maybe 5 tiles wide would be more fitting instead of the shown 3.

Lastly reworking the first solo a bit should make it more fun. It could of course be preference but I think something like in the example I added would make it more appealing.

explanation of the bug the bot keeps yelling about: since march, you can now save quad layers with no quads in them. before, they were removed before saving. for compatibility though, it kinda fakes quad data while saying there are 0 quads. the bot's tool is a little more strict and detects that inconsistency (which I will fix)

Map :lady_beetle: :

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this is the wrong tp! it should be 6

y my bad

forgot to change it

;d

skip

this is soloable

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^ still

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solo possible

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sorry for spam

should be last

xD

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this is inconsistent now? 😅

i will just delete freeze and ufreeze

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Tele 7 also teleports back to the start. (Winner room) And maybe change the ground to unhook so if a new player misshooks trying to rescue someone they don't drag themselves into the freeze.

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Fixed + changed second part a little

what do you think about this idea?

I can do this

Why not

i think it would improve the design, especially that one section on the grenade parts with only unhookables looks sad

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done

would be nice if you cut 2-3 HT tiles here to make the gameplay a bit smoother, players who struggle with the game mechanics might have a harder time getting up there

these should be HD

since we are here already, might be better to put unhooks

teles and stoppers are hard to see with HD off, maybe the mountains can be in HD off for the better contrast 😅 (this shouldnt harm the performance, since they have no opacity)

grass should be marked as detail

Map channel has been moved to waiting mapper.

ready after fixes

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you can get stuck here

but only if you really try hard to do so? hmm invisible speeders inside the stoppers might be a solution?

good solution is to use all side stoppers not one sided

it's not hard to get stuck inside

why would you not get stuck inside all side stoppers?

actually it's kinda rare fail so i think it doesn't need a fix

maybe you can close the ceiling so nobody intentionally trys to get stuck

😏

Welf can you join test server?

First ready set by Trial Tester. Map needs to be tested again by an official tester before fully evaluated.

The map is now ready to be released! Difficulty Rating: ★★☆☆☆Optimized version attached. Changelog:

Unoptimized version: https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/1258106963238060133/1262181796758687765

for transparency: simple and me made this map ready

Thanks a lot to every tester in this channel for efficient and accurate map testing ;D

Sure

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Done + added small animation to logo

The map is now ready to be released! Difficulty Rating: ★★☆☆☆Optimized version attached. Changelog:

Unoptimized version: https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/1258106963238060133/1262392985887445062

The birds are flickering

The birds are already colored in black, why would you try to color them with the color curves?

It would be better like that

Also, sync your envelopes if you want everyone to see the same thing at the same time*

It looks like the tileset was borderfixed

sync means that the animations reset if you hit start, so not everyone would see stuff at the same time?

That doesn't work like that anymore since 10.4.3

If you don't sync, it syncs to the client time. If you sync, it syncs to the server time

ahh i missed that change and the tooltip confused me, i think it doesnt reset on start as it says in the tooltip

Yep

It occurred at that time : https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/pull/602

SOLOBG and UNSOLOBG are hard to see

The colors are too pure

Colors of what exactly ?

nvm

i guess thats the answer ;d

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had another testrun, so before i ready it again i put 2 suggestions 😅

stoppers here? its rather easy to fail this i guess

unfreeze would be nice here

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i added unfreeze here but didnt mark it

The map is now ready to be released! Difficulty Rating: ★★☆☆☆Optimized version attached. Changelog:

Unoptimized version: https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/1258106963238060133/1263096932008460349

nicee!! ^^

map is not even close to 2*

so it should be 1? we can do that, but it feels more like 2\, need more opinions

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/608711488806584330/1072878666968739850/a_af4c29e60556e5325f1118597fb187d0.gif

it should be rated by someone who know how the noobs play

2 stars its fine

not easy enough to be 1 star

this could be very confusing for a noob

how did u think its 1* map

we have very very less real 1* maps

this map is between 3-4

i dont think so

2 fits good

if so, its between 2-3

I see you are not familiar with it

I understand this map might be hard for a player like u, but its not that hard bro

What exactly does that mean, u need alot of experience to rate novice maps

Moderate player are often very wrong about it

The best u can do is search corners, just do this and don't try other things

so mad

Coke please work on your communication 🙂

your map has just been released, and you now have a 2-week grace period to identify and resolve any unnoticed bugs or skips. After these two weeks, only design and quality of life (QoL) fixes will be allowed, provided they don't impact the leaderboard rankings. Be aware that significant gameplay changes may impact and lead to the removal of ranks. Good luck with your map!

Cliff Charge has been set to RELEASED.

pre final part. Guys this needs to be changed. Sadly someone already seen me doing this and now they will block here.

Blocking is possible on every single map. I know this part could be made differently so its not that easy to block but changing maps cause u can easily block on them is beyond stupid. Its not the maps fault people decide to block.

final part on adorenarine 2. does this also need to be changed then?

if Konsti would listen then it should be changed. Still on novice and shorter maps where its easly to get to the end then this kind of things shouldn’t be possible and on some 1-3* moderates also.

on this map its an easy fix with just making the wall unhookable

walls* unhookable

Changing something that will make less work for moderators (and won’t make some players unhappy if someone will use it)especially when its an easy fix that won’t affect the gameplay and ranks, should be always taken into consideration. Not seeing that is „beyond ……” 🙂

i was a bit wrong, the map is between 4-5*

more 5*

We finished the map very easily on stream , just one problem one guy didn't get grenade teleport (didn't know), but everywhere else map was easy for everyone.

yes but novice should be doable for beginners in 2p duo runs

its clearly not 2* map xd

Hmm its definitely not 4-5 * I played this map with a beginner with 1 points (only tutorial finished) and it didn't take much time

yeah very wrong, its different if u help noobies to get through

Yeah but still Did you try the recent 4~5 star novice maps?

It's a lot more difficult than this, in terms of difficulty and length

He was tester 😂

I know, but this just isn't 4 5 stars really

why did he lose the role

i was about the re rate all the maps, but stopped it and now nobody is able to do it, u cant compare

https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/420565311863914496/1216733450300686437

most of the novice maps are wrong rated

lmfao thanks

What do you think is right then? Even with the 'old' ratings.. do you think this map is as hard as kobra, planet venus, or the skillz series?

kobra is clearly moderate map

i wont continue this, u dont know anything about rating maps

i spend endless hours to watch noobs, let noobs play maps etc

to get the best feeling of the rating for novice maps

often its about the movement u need

This is pointless

You're just insisting the rating of the maps by how hard you think it is. Rating the maps were always depended on the testers subjective opinion, and this map is rated the same way. I won't care if you were a tester, but you aren't now and we should follow how the rating system has worked.

i know it better my boy

they have no testers left with experience

I would say 3-4* would be fine

The solos are really not that noob friendly

Literally saw ppl rq first solo xd

then change the galactees rating as well

🙈

Post-release updates need to be manually uploaded. Please reach out to an administrator.

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it seems like you didnt take the optimized version (i compared file sizes)?

Optimized version attached. Changelog:

i can do this in optimized version if its needed

Btw is there any option to improve design in galactees and implement it into the game ?

i hope you can answer this, also you can upload the fixed version, but im not sure how to verify, that no important gameplay was changed in this version

Have you changed anything gameplay-wise?

or rather, will your change affect the current leaderboard?

U mean cliff charge ?

only what you can see on ss

So no

but if you are asking about galactees

neither, I just want to change the appearance of the map a bit to look better

this change wouldnt require a leaderbord reset right? because you wouldn't use those blocks (they were hookable) in a speedrun?

u can upload this map in your maps folder and run test server

to check if everything is godd

it's fine, minor change + map not speedrun yet + not that important for speedrun + when it's not allowed it's when you delete something usefull to the speedrun(so a run can't be beaten if it's perfect)

i can verify that nothing else besides the screenshot was changed, but it would be some effort, i think we can trust the mapper here, also vena and me agree, that this wont affect the speedruns

they did some speedruns yesterday

This part is so unfriendly to new players they, just skip the telegun and don't know what to do in solo.

If u turn off entites u will know

didn't want to force a change when i tested it, but i agree that it's too confusing for a low novice map, in future i will force mappers to not create unintuitive gameplay (some players can't read, some players just ignore any kind of signs, in low novice stuff like the issue above shouldn't happen)

Novice players ignore/don't know about entities off

they rather don't know about entities?

They should but in the begin they simply don't know

In 4 and 5 imo it's ok, but u rated this 2*, so it's not

(for me it's still 4 or 5*)

Too short for 5* also any part is "hard"

definitely 4* at least considering other maps

i advise to rerate this to 4*, if any testers disagree please discuss it here

Firewatch 2 is 3* and this felt easier to us while testing

sunny side up is 3*, i think thats a better baseline, this is slightly more difficult and has solo parts that make it more difficult for noobs

sunny side up has spots where its like impossible to rescue for beginners

sunny side up also has a faily solopart

so making it more than 3* would be weird to me

at the very least put this to 3*, if its easier than firewatch but harder than ssu

its not harder than ssu

is

i disagree

i argued, you didn't counterargue

pretty sure the drags here require better movement

yep i agree

ssu you can have subpar movement and still get thru drags

but failyness on novice is alot harder for beginners

and movement is the main thing newbs struggle with

yye but you just die

you die on ssu if you dont have movement

disagree, tele doesnt necessarily make things easier, it makes things more frustrating

disagree

regardless i would recommend newer players to finish ssu before i recommend them to finish this map, and the star rating should reflect that

just bcuz a map is a bit failier doesnt make it harder

lets just agree on 3* lol why do we keep arguing

yeah i think that's good

4* is probably an overestimation tbh, id have to look more closely

but i def. think its more 3 than 2

because you need to hook and walk or jump at the same time?

just put the fries in the bag

yes, there are some moves in here like jump+hook + dj midair that need a bit more precision

for example in ssu i feel like the hardest "tech" part was the hammerfly

everything else can be done with noob level coordination

this part in ssu requires you to hook, jump and release at the right moment

isnt this one more difficult though? unless im misunderstanding how to do it

or is there hookable there

its been a minute since i played this

yes, i sent the screenshot because i wanted to show that you can argue "ssu has advanced tech too"

afaik there was never a big talk at which difficulty differences it justifies more stars etc i dont even know how to evaluate failyness in novice maps according to the newish rating

i mean it's the same in every category, how to compare failyness (ssu) to tech (cliff charge)

if we agree that this is 3, then Grell should be 3\ too, i will edit that..

nvm idk how to do it

LMK when your discussion is done 😄

I think they agreed on 3*. :P

higher rating is always better if u are unsure, i would rate this 4 or 5*, not sure

I must say that I went to check how others play it and it took 6minutes for one of them to complete the first part and two left at the first solo because they couldn't get up to the grenade. (They had 4 and 6 points)

lets get some more opinions

Rating this much higher than 2* would be terrible if you compare it to the higher difficulty novices

it seems a common consensus is that the whole of novice needs a rerate though

Ye map halloween night is very hard for novices

Complete my list when? it's laying already some months and nobody is touching it

It has not been known since yesterday that almost all novice maps need a rerating. Comparing new maps with old maps and their rating is the worst thing you can do

Before we can rerate maps, we need discussions like this today. We need a concept for how a rerating should happen. What exactly defines a 1* 2* 3* 4* 5* novice map? How much of the mechanic can we expect from the beginners at the respecting difficulty? How do we evaluate failyness? Should we also rerate moderate maps, because there will be alot of old novice maps in moderate, if we do the rerating, that is suggested by some player. Inflating the novice rating, as some suggest it now, will cause more issues. You could also easily justify to put exactly those maps into 1, which are made for first time players etc. and start with advanced mechanics on 2\. But since there was (afaik) no real discussion about all that, we shouldn't do anything now. If we do any kind of rerating, we have to do it properly.

For me 1-3 = starters, 4-5 normal novice players, it's more about the feeling and the mechanics of the map, example hammerfly - if a map contains hammerfly it should go instant to 4 or 5 *

Failyness shouldn't be a thing in 1-3* maps

U can fail nearly every map, but it depends on the part

And u can't rerate all servers at the same time, just start with novice and so on

what are normal novice players? why 1-3* for starters? if you move novice maps to moderate, you are already changing the moderate ratings (because you equalize some old novice maps with moderate maps) so you need a concept for how to change the moderate maps.

Hire noobs to complete maps and determine the difficulty level

The more maps they beat the easier it will become for them since you improve rapidly at the start

let's introduce bots, preferably AI-based

XD

I've seen videos of the bot making maps in the fastest way possible

let's make a bot that plays like a noob

and does not gain experience

XD

actually... sounds cool

Can you send a link for the list?

As I said, one by one, server by server.. As u can see its way too much work for only one server type... It will contain confuse but it's whatever if u work on the rerating. With a simple announcement about the rating it's done ig

https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/746534464984973323/1207446610242441277

Thanks

inflating novice ratings now will cause broken ratings on moderate, they will force a rerating on moderate maps and that will cause more problems

The current wrong map rating too, u should just start with it

I've talked already so much about it, it's always the same bcs so much work can't be done in 2 days

U have to play every map to get a feeling of it

The other way is : rerate all but don't move the new moderate maps yet.. But its kind of the same

not really, because there are very few 0-2 star moderate maps currently and there isn't really a measurable difference between the upcoming novice maps and existing 0-2 star moderate maps

cliff_charge should be at least 3 stars but I tend to give it 4 stars because of the failiness and the "complicated" solos, in general the map is very unbalanced

you wanted to write cliff charge and refer to this map?

fixed

failyness doesnt rly make a map instantly harder

not saying in respect to this map, but just in general