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https://ddnet.tw/testmaps/?map=Carob

little changes

wrong version

Some changes thx 2 Welf

In my opinion this map shouldn't be released, it seems to be a weird combination of trying to be brutal and a tutorial. There are a few interesting parts that I do think are worth exploring but most of the map feels like painful filler parts. I think it would be better to start over with the better parts of the map and scrap the dull bits.

That being said let me now try and explain the issues I had with the map:

This isn't really moderate difficulty in my opinion, but the whole map doesn't seem to be one set difficulty, it jumps around from novice to brutal parts.

Here is an example of a dull (time waster) part:

Laser shouldn't move here, it doesn't really add much to the map and makes it annoying for speedruns, If you want to have it move I think you could make it move quickly both ways to make it less annoying.

Rather place to25 inside of the hookable blocks, at the moment it is rather annoying if you miss by hooking too high/too low. If you would like to map it like this then I would recommend placing the hook tps inside the walls/floors so players can't hook incorrectly as easily.

This part shouldn't be deep at all. You are basically just forcing players to carry back everytime they fail the part, failing the part is bad enough. Rather make it tp and remove the deep.

same as previous

This one isn't as important but I still think you should keep it in mind when mapping, The green solo and red solo parts aren't really equal in length, which means player doing the green solo has to wait quite a while.

This drag out part could be shorter, being this long isn't really adding any fun, it's just a novice drag slowing players down.

Here the grenade shot up shouldn't be 1 block wide imo. I don't think it would ruin the part if it was 2 or 3 blocks wide, instead just make it less annoying to do. I felt like I was expected to use aiming binds to do it.

Here there is no unsolo for onion thus it is impossible to continue the map?

Ending fly is long and boring, also compare it to the first part of your map, the difficulty is very differen't here XD

I am not sure if hoox was a typo but surely you mean to say hook?

Also "take speed" should be "need speed", there is no really nice way to say it in two words but the only speed that can be taken is a drug XD

As for the messages you left around the map, some of them really feel like they are for novice players but this isn't a novice map. It feels weird that a map of this difficulty is trying to teach me how to swing and that I need to get a weapon I am passing. For confusing/new parts some hints would be nice but not basic stuff.

Then the design of the start of you're map is unnecessarily confusing for players out of entities. The first time I looked at it I assumed your hookthrough was unhookable. I quickly learnt that it wasn't but I guess my question would be why create this confusion in the first place?

First, thanks for testing I will say my opinion about the screens you made

This isn't really moderate difficulty in my opinion, but the whole map doesn't seem to be one set difficulty, it jumps around from novice to brutal parts.

its the first part, so you can get there in no time so i dont think its that huge of an issue (i will change smth about the nf so you dont have to do it everytiime you fail 1part)

Here is an example of a dull (time waster) part:

If i make it harder people will say its not moderate

Laser shouldn't move here, it doesn't really add much to the map and makes it annoying for speedruns, If you want to have it move I think you could make it move quickly both ways to make it less annoying.

this part is not relevant for speedruns so your arguement doesnt count there. Its there in case you lose laser you dont have to go back to the first one

Rather place to25 inside of the hookable blocks, at the moment it is rather annoying if you miss by hooking too high/too low. If you would like to map it like this then I would recommend placing the hook tps inside the walls/floors so players can't hook incorrectly as easily.

i can put it more down ok, but it wont change a thing imo, but if you want so i will do, doesnt change the gameplay

This part shouldn't be deep at all. You are basically just forcing players to carry back everytime they fail the part, failing the part is bad enough. Rather make it tp and remove the deep.

i fact of many ppl say there shouldnt be deep i guess i will change it xd

This one isn't as important but I still think you should keep it in mind when mapping, The green solo and red solo parts aren't really equal in length, which means player doing the green solo has to wait quite a while.

i will make the long part a bit shorter

This drag out part could be shorter, being this long isn't really adding any fun, it's just a novice drag slowing players down.

i dont know about this, its not that huge, its not that the part even takes 5sec

Here there is no unsolo for onion thus it is impossible to continue the map?

forgot to add unsolo, there wasnt solo before

Here the grenade shot up shouldn't be 1 block wide imo. I don't think it would ruin the part if it was 2 or 3 blocks wide, instead just make it less annoying to do. I felt like I was expected to use aiming binds to do it.

you can hook down where stands take speed and then you have enough time to aim to the top so its not and issue

Also "take speed" should be "need speed", there is no really nice way to say it in two words but the only speed that can be taken is a drug XD

doesnt change a thing you can understand "need speed" like you need the drug to get this part (its the same one or the other way)

Then the design of the start of you're map is unnecessarily confusing for players out of entities. The first time I looked at it I assumed your hookthrough was unhookable. I quickly learnt that it wasn't but I guess my question would be why create this confusion in the first place?

this is no issue because you have unhook at the start so i think you will be the only one thinking its unhook

Update will follow

its the first part, so you can get there in no time so i dont think its that huge of an issue I guess it just feels like a brutal start and not moderate to me (brutal parts belong in brutal maps not moderate ones XD)

If i make it harder people will say its not moderate I think the problem is you're thinking "make it harder" instead of "make it more fun", it's a slow dull part that feels like it could be in a harder novice map.

this part is not relevant for speedruns so your arguement doesnt count there. That is a good point 🙂 I do think it is like the deep parts I told you to remove though (An extra punishment when failing is punishment enough).

i can put it more down ok, but it wont change a thing imo, but if you want so i will do, doesnt change the gameplay I would think putting it in the hookable would be the best solution because I missed the hook a few times only to spectate the part and feel cheated. The player should feel like it was their fault but here I felt like it was the maps fault. (Might just be my opinion but I don't think the change would hurt your part.

i dont know about this, its not that huge, its not that the part even takes 5sec I totally agree it is a short time waster, but I don't think that's a good reason to keep it XD

you can hook down where stands take speed and then you have enough time to aim to the top so its not and issue That's fair it isn't a really big issue.

doesnt change a thing you can understand "need speed" like you need the drug to get this part (its the same one or the other way) It does change it, in English speed isn't really a thing you can take. Speed is something you can require or need but not take.
The saying "take speed" just means do meth, but saying "need speed" could either mean that you require fast movement or that you require meth. I just assume people won't assume you are telling them to do drugs if you say "need speed" or "You require speed" or "Go fast" Either way not a big problem I just thought I would point it out XD

this is no issue because you have unhook at the start so i think you will be the only one thinking its unhook I think if I show people the screenshot I took they would immediately think it is unhook. The hookthrough isn't needed there at all, it can and will lead to unnecessary confusion and I don't see why you would want to defend it XD I mean if it's the design choice for your map then why is it only done at the start?

Good luck with the map but imo starting over with just the good parts might be better.

There is liturally 1 part you said its boring and maybe the hf at end, ez fix

Red = Bad/Boring parts Blue = Ok but dull, possible overdone. Green = Good/Interesting

Please note this isn't taking into account difficulty ie: part 1 is a good part but not really for moderate. I will also say that this is just my opinion of the map but I wanted to show you a better idea of what I think of the map, I don't screenshot every flaw when I test would take me ages XD

Also some parts seem quite good or interesting but turned out to be annoying to do (eg: your hook drag hammer through floor part).

I agree with most cases with soapy. Thanks alot for detailled feedback, we really need this in map testing.

I gave you my feedback ingame 2 days ago, it’s matches most of it what soapi said... I can just upvote his posts

I understand most of your points but thinks like to drag someone down are needed to make the following part possible so I cant change them. I am about to change the first laser part, because I can see that this is a bit boring. Im about to make some parts in the last hammerfly too. Imo the rating of yours contradict in some points. You mark the shotgun part as red but the laser part above as green, although there are not that different (the idea behind that part). Furthermore some parts are a bit more simple because i dont want it do be moderate, if i make them more "interesting" they will get harder. To conclude in all maps there are certain points which are boring but necessary to connect parts, so i dont think everything must be exciting. Even the newest releast maps which were part of the tournament there are places where you just have to hook someone out of a 4tile long Freeze tunnel which isnt very creative or small and tight parts where it could be mapped more open. I just want to say that there will be not a single map which only has blue or green parts of your rating. I think we should take a closer look to the main parts of maps and dont make a map bad just because there are not so creative connections, even if they are needed. I will make the main boring parts more interesting and shorten the connection parts.

I already told you that you can use hook teleport to skip the dragging down. (as far as i remember i told you) If you can only create a part with a boring segment, you have to consider if it's worth.

It will take the same amout of time, so its not that great of an update

You should not compare your map to a novice map.

soapy tester when

Almost changed everything mentioned

+deleted some not needed infos

Brought a few SA players in to test this latest version, maybe SA has different taste in maps but we don't think it is good enough and we vote decline.

Map seems unbalanced, contains far too many frustrating/dull parts It has got a few parts that could make for an interesting brutal map but overall wasn't fun for us.

I agree with Soapy. I took a long time to test the map and test the parts (even the annoying ones) and it feels unbalanced.

It has some good ideas, some drags are nice, even though they can be reworked to make it more fun, but for me it felt weird. Every 2 parts there was a solo part, there was not big team gameplay. It has good ideas but they are not well implemented imo

I dont see the point, why the map is unbalanced. There is no hard part in it or a part which is too simple. Furthermore I dont understand the point there should be every 2 part a solo. In the middle of the map there is a bit of solo, to conclude every Tee has to do two solo parts the rest is Teamplay. In the other hand you support maps like tangerine which is liturally a solo map.

As Moderate player you should be able to do hh

The recent releast moderate map contains even more "Boring" parts

And there is no rule which says that you are not allowed to make a solo part in a ddrace map

To make a solo in your map makes it more diversified imo

I agree with some of the points you wrote before but now some of the points are not true anymore

The player which I saw playing said that the map is good

And after they said that i asked them if its unbalanced they said no

You are comparing your map to Tangerine, a novice 1* map? Please don't compare your map to the map from soapy sandwich, it feels like you are personally attacking him at this point (also it's not that easy to compare those 2 maps). You also criticised Ravies (novice) map after he criticised this map. Since you did this 2 times already, it feels like you are doing it intentionally.

Tangerine is Not 1* novice (and Not from soapy), but thats not the Case. I can compare with other recent releast maps. Please dont say things i dont even thought about (Während wir miteinander geschrieben haben ist mir oft aufgefallen, dass du anderen Leuten Wörter in den Mund legst, die so nicht stimmen, bitte vermeide sowas) The reason I took this examples because it were curret released maps or curret topics which everbody speeks about. Furthermore novice and moderate maps can be compared, they are both ddrace Maps, the one is just harder than the other ones. +I not criticising Ravies Maps, I Just said that there are some points you cant Change. i just say that some points he mentioned, he did it by himself on his map, but say other mappers to change it, I think thats not fair to them

Tangerine is 2* novice then? Doesn't matter, it's not compareable, that's why i mentioned that difficulty. In Tangerine the solo parts make alot of sense to me. Your solo parts don't make sense to me. It seemed like you were talking about Snow Problem. You said

Then i checked which was the most recent released moderate map and it was Snow Problem. You should've said "maps" to make it more clear. I didn't try to put words in your mouth. If you give me a better example, i can try to understand what you mean by that. You can't compare novice maps to high moderate maps. Novice maps should be much different than moderate maps. They should not just be easier moderate maps. Moderate maps (especially higher ones) should be a challenge, while novice maps should be rather teaching. In moderate maps there are parts where people need 10 minutes, in easy novice maps a 10 minute part would be an issue. Especially low novice maps should teach the basic principles of the game (like cooperation). Your map doesn't need to do that.

Your critique on Ravies map was weird for me, because for beginners it's actually not that hard to hook other tees out of a tube. You wont understand it, when you look on it from a brutal player perspective. Also on novice it's alot harder to avoid having easier parts for other players, because your map structure shouldn't be too complex. So with all this stuff said you just can't compare your map to a novice map. I hope you can finally agree on this.

You wont find edgehooks in novice maps but somehow you have to learn them too, like in baby aim or smth simular so moderate maps can teach you too

"moderates should be a Challenge" i agree on that too it can be a combination from both thats why i dont understand at what point the map is "brutal"

There is an edgehook in the beginner map Seasons (well it's with stoppers).

I get that moderate parts should be challenging, but sometimes your map runs from a hard and a bit faily part to an easy one.

Also you shouldn't add such things as "take speed" or "hold hook", a moderate player is experimented enough to know such things by looking into the map

I just say that this map needs some rework so every part can be enjoyable

This Shows me that you did Not See the newest version of the map

"Take Speed" is an important information

The only faily parts are at the first 3 ones and all other parts are the same difficulty

Unbalanced map, mix of boring parts with feature parts that barely work. Some parts are very easy while others are too precise. On top of that it's messy mapped (inconsistent structure, lots of useless info signs, other small things like shield sound bug). Overall this reminds me of somebody's first map, I would expect better mapping from a tester. I don't really think this map is fixable.

$decline

Too hasty

Give him time for fixes

I don't really think this map is fixable.

And I think it is

😁

well it will take major changes to get me to agree on it

afaik everybody who doesn't like this map has the opinion, that this map needs major changes. i suggest to start making a new map with the good parts. just take some time and come up with new parts. at this point i don't want to invest more time in this map. i invested time, ravie invested time, 4 people from SA invested their time.

$decline

$reset

I'm not willing to put the time needed to fix this map, and you're biased since Qywinc is your friend

let another tester test this map, if he also says its bad im fine to decline it

I dont understand your point but it is like it is

Maybe

can give it a try

Make the Tele-Hook more ez so you dont have to aim that excactly + make the 2 part more easy + little fixes

i hope im not adding too much fuel to the fire, but asking someone directly what they think about your own creation will, most of the time, result in positive feedback (less so if the person already made their opinion in advance)

fix telebug

deep and undeep isnt layouted here.

Also finishline is in HD

also just generally some stoppers are in HD and some arent

deep is removed

this is were stoppers are HD

and this corner

oh and right under it, there is entitie bug

fixed all + little changes

hmm I thought this map is already declined

2 little fixes will follow tomorrow

highdetails off at finish shows an old finsih line

laser parts were boring

dummy drag parts confusing and complicated xd

not good for bigger groups

and yea, there are many entities off spots

looong hammerfly at the end, long hammerhit without hammer part at the begininng...

that hf used to be much longer xdddd

drag and solo parts are also so long

where other tee just waits

that is not good

the drag parts with hook teles are also so long + imagine that players will fail it 5 times and have to redo it again and again

and frozen tee just sits and does nothing, it will be boring

even the first part - you throw your mate and WAIT because he has a part to do

that part could be used as a noobfilter

remember that 99% ppl will need a few tries for the parts

they should have checkpoints or be split into 2 smaller parts

remove the filter and make the beginning a simple hh part would be better imo :x

teamforce 😁

$decline