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KingsLeap

Inspired by the famous rage game JumpKing, this map promises a thrilling and challenging adventure like no other. Get ready to test your skills, patience, and determination as you navigate through this treacherous terrain filled with twists, turns, and NPCs waiting for you along the way.

KingsLeap is designed to be exceptionally challenging, but immensely rewarding. Each section of the map requires precision, skill, and a bit of luck. Can u conquer KingsLeap? Join this epic adventure, compete for glory.

Caveats

This map was already hosted (in a different version) on another server and there are a handful of players who already know it. Only 16 people (including me) were able to finish it in the past 5 month. Also this is not my first map submitted to ddnet. In my last submission I felt ignored and got not so good feedback. Sometimes there were actually issues, but sometimes I felt like people do simply not share my artistic vision. You'll clearly see, that this map has it's own un-tee-ish artstyle, too. Therefore I invite

,

(Balami),

and

for testing and checking this. If your name was not mentioned here, you are ofc. also invited to checking this!

Since this map was already hosted on another server, I had to promise not to host it somewhere different (including ddnet) for 6 months, meaning:

This map can be released on the 24.12.2024 earliest!.

Some humorous warnings about its notorious difficulty

• Warning: May induce rage quitting, controller throwing, and existential crises.
• Think you can handle it? Remember, it's just a game... or is it?
• Disclaimer: We are not responsible for any broken keyboards, mice, or spirits.
• Be prepared to laugh, cry, and maybe question your life choices.
• Remember, every fall is a lesson. Unfortunately, it's a lesson in gravity.

Good luck, and happy jumping!

The creation of this map

The map took over a hundred actual hours of mapping, and over half a year constantly working on it, bit by bit.

How do the physics work?

The physics are very tricky to get down. You want the player not to be able to move on ground, but only in the air. Setting

to 0 is not enough, because if you're faster than that, you are NOT forced to slow down. Therefore you set

to -1 in order to make the player by himfself slow down by moving. This has the effekt, that you can moonwalk with some skill, which is an intended mechanic in this map. It's not necessary to do this in order to finish, but you can save a lot of time by doing this.

Server settings/Tune zones

The serversettings and tune zones are generated with a python script using Patigas twmap-tool by

• Converting a map into a directory structure
• modifying the existing

file

• Converting it back to a map
• Loading and saving again in the map editor

I can show you the python script if you want

Animations

• The animations are also generated with python by converting the map into a directory structure and modifying it's files
• Animations are bound to the "virtual" grid of the map, this is not a bug but intended!
• Animations are put into their own clipping region. This improves FPS!

Pixelarts

• The pixelarts are created by hand by me
• Pixel arts are created with the map_create_pixelart tool, which already exists in ddnet. I had to work against a lot of issues with this tool as described here
• Pixelarts are put into their own clipping region. This improves FPS!

Sounds

The sounds are partially handmade and partially free source snippets. I guarantee, that the Organ is handmade and the soundtrack of this map exists as a tux-guitar-file.

Shadows

The shadows tileset is also generated with python. I also have an automapper for it, which is also generated with python and has 80K lines to it. Aks me if you want it.

Details

Details are used (/missused?) in order to open and close the Chapter section. But certain parts of the map are really FPS heavy, like the heavy snow on top. In order to improve experience for potatoe-machine-players, I also removed some snow for them. There is no rule against this, I sometimes wish for map-mechanics to be added and usable like this.

Checkpoints

The map involves pathfinding by design. There are some intentional cuts you can take and I am fine with it. You don't skip major parts of the map, but can skip annoying parts if you have enough skill. Just reach the top.

NPCs

The are just pixelarts with

and

texts. Some have secrets, they are all cool!

Bouncing

Oh yeah, I am also the guy who implemented bouncyness, just set

or

. This is used for the bed for example

Credits

• Thanks to

for supporting the last event with 50€!

• Thanks to

for hosting this map for half a year

• Thanks to

for makting this wonderful map possible

• Thanks to DarkChip for maptesting and moral support ❤️!

(The worst part was setting this wall of text up for discord, like holy shit)

$approved

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Add this map

This map can be released on the 24.12.2024 earliest!.

Teini moment

See it as a christmas gift 🙂

Also understandable

Also I would give the map at least Moderate. it has a high difficulty curve

crazy

just reading all this I know that this map has a good chance of being accepted

It better be

ig it would be solo. I haven't played it much yet, like half of it with rescue (and now it's kinda late so I'll stop). But this jump feels a lil bit too hard & punishing compared to the rest? (first image) And for the second one, wouldn't it be possible/better to add some speeder up or something so you don't have to do 6 djs for the part. A similar thing was said on the bouncy new map and it was 3 djs to 2. 6 is a bit... to much imo.

Map looks fun

Yes this jump is notorious, and this is the first part introducing it. you missed the other 6 instances of this.

I agree with the bed-bouncing, but a speedtile there would be a bit cheap. There is another bouncing part which is doable in 1 bounce

you missed the other 7 instances of this. What do you mean? About the "insta jump"? I know there was another a bit later but it's not really punishing. If there was one before that that was also punishing I indeed missed it. That one just seemed really hard compared to the rest of the first half.

What do you mean? About the "insta jump"?

I mean the part on the left with bouncing, this might be off topic (regarding your question/demand)

Verification of your skills if you want to go further

he has some point tho. I wouldn't worry to much about the jumping, it makes you notice the cat 🐱

But this one for example is the same, but it doesn't matter if you fail it as you can instantly retry it. For the other one you need to redo the whole part (that has 1 decently hard jump, the previous one)

And this is not an issue but I find it pretty fun that you can fail on this map x). Anyways gl. I'll play it more some other day

(that has 1 decently hard jump, the previous one) this is learnable, meaning the jump before. I nail it every time, but maybe because I already spend hundrets of hours on this map

This is the only part where you can fail, in the older version this was even worse! At other 1 tile places where you could be stuck I placed a speedtile to unstuck. You can not do that there unfortunately. Btw this is an intended cut which requires skill. I am okay there with the fail, because it's 20 seconds into the map

y someone showed me. But as I said I had no problem with it anyways

Testers can imo vote, if I should add a block to the right here

Should I put an extra block here? 👍 yes 👎 No

because yes, it may be too punishing for the difficulty of this chapter

Imo would be great

mhm~1

from hardest jump to free jump doesnt make 2 much sense cause the map is based on backfall. may alternative idea? a bit easier jump or save to canon part (not fall back 2much)

You could also move the top part 1 block to the left so that you at least don't touch the ceiling

you can always fall back to the cannon part by holding right

Anyways I am also curious about testers opinion

maybe moving the block 1 lower would be better

but then it's not part anymore of the broken of bridge ceiling

tassing this map was fun, f3 release

wow this map is sick

design is so amazing, its the only time pixel graphics were done well

Hmm, someone is pinging me like I'm a tester, but I'm not and never have been. play about half. first i wanna talk about dj, its weird cus it have impulse where gameplay like it's not allowed to jump in the air. And this mechanic is annoying cus it takes so long cus dj is so small. and u annoyed not cus its hard, but cus its so boring especially second screen.

second i wanna talk about unexpected things like this its bad cus player dont expect u can stuck here, my solution is add places like this on all the way from start, they will learn the dangers of places like this much earlier. And when they get there, they will already be concentrating on not getting stuck.

third i wanna talk about places like this, they look like usable and only after a few attempts that you figure out it doesn't work. so my solution to make them further, so it'll make more clear

i dont like this jump cus zoom issue, for me its ok but i feel pain who have default zoom

that was fun.

if i remember correcly in original game u cant control in air, but here u can. so ok for me enough testing for today)

map is not my cup of tee but have to admit its nice project. if possible I'd let people zoom out more than like 8 times (which is not much if you spectate on this map) without visual issues like top right and bg

mechanics should be explained better if you want a more fun map, but if you wanna troll people keep it as is

Congrats, you found all of my red-herings. As I said above, pathfinding is part of the map and you'll need some brainpower to solve these! Except for the jump at cp5, there are multiple routes possible and this platform is for landing falling players

There is Something in the map for the non-obvious meachanic 😉 you don't need it for finishing thoo

not what i mean

bed explains that you can bounce up, but in the following part the bounce is so subtle you dont really know what the gel does

which makes this a leap of faith

Yes thats true, Leap of Faith, KingsLeap 🤔

But you are out of options at the top of this hole. There is no other way to solve this, you can't go back, you have some weird platforms and why is there a one tile gap at the left side?

and i failed a bunch here trying to figure out how the cannon works and what "dont jump too early" meant

didn't you have fun figuring this out? 😮

okay I'll take a look again at the Background, the top right looks as intended? Because you are not in a chapter anymore

not really due to the amount of retries trying every possibility

landing in the gel didnt look possible

this part will 100% make you fall if you dont know how ice works

true, but you shouldn't fall far there. This is the introduction part and right below is a platform. You maybe lose up to 10 seconds failing this

and here i thought the snow was decorative before i noticed something was off

• the edges of the faster wind are hard to see so its unexpected when you suddenly lose the effect

like it could be a little higher here

you mean the snow or the tiles?

snow

this looks like 2 tiles but i guess its fine because of how the jumps work and you can call me dumb but i didnt realise you can land on the anchor and instead fell trying to get back to the wood platforms

What would you let him tell you? What should his voiceline be? Because I changed it multiple times but I also don't want to spoil the solution directly to the player

you could have him say nothing or you could have it fade out as hes yelling at you like "whatever you do, dont-..." or have some of the bounce gel around him or the cannon as a visual hint

also this part is annoying

there is a setup for this, you can do this instantly.

then its not clear

true, requires skill and planning

Update:

• background now blurs into safety background in order to prevent bugs when zooming out, thank you

❤️

• I changed the church jump, it was annoying and a bit to early for the required skill of this chapter. The same jump comes later in other punishing ways, like on top, where i won't fix this! Also I think this looks cool with the ropes :3 E:

• Aligned snow a bit better, but this is impossible to get perfectly right. If you have better ideas to indicate wind, go ahead! (just a ping

)

you are in the air right for 1 frame holding left

TAS uses this to skip the last part :3

Update:

• worked on the church jump again, it's now a bit harder again, this was too free for me
• removed speedtiles on edges on top in order to prevent this speedtile bug
• fixed an issue with the CPs, cp 6 was used twice, cp 4 moved down a bit because you could reach it from the bottom too early

You know that part is easier now?

why is this easier now?

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

thanks

and this

they are so invisible

?

what would you think of this?

In that wheel are blocks?

yes, see second screenshot

So its just like you told me ypu want to do

a bit different, here the slide dj jump is not possible

and now you can bonk your head on the wheel jump

Like its not my decision if it stays or not but personaly its better than that free jump that was before

i speedbug at the end with the speeder gg

already fixed

or what do you mean

dying from jumping because of speeder

you mean you fell down and ragequit?

no, the speedup bug kicks you into the upper death border i assume xd

I already fixed this

ah ok

removed speedtiles on edges on top in order to prevent this speedtile bug

sorry

didn't think this is human viable, also what a horrendous bug

shid

what is an mkv file 🤔

video

already fixed.

👍

Update:

• fixed wrong CPs thank

• reworked church jump to be more punishing again, but not pixel perfect
• added wheel artwork, because I can
• added more hidden lore

• one Cp4 too much, will remove Unfortunately I need to go now, will improve at evening or tomorrow 🙂

would you accept a release on fun?

i tested the whole map and dont think its really a fit for solo, since its really repetitive overall, not just the mechanic overall but also a lot of parts are just copy paste too make the map longer overall and more punishing (which is never a good way of mapping) a release on fun would be a way better solution since its a very experimental map

i also add +1 for fun category, we talk in testing chat and many tester agreed, having different physics doesn't fit well ddnet and solo category, but remind me of "i wanna beat the map" (also a different phys, and is on fun)

No, because you don't get points on fun

Why do points matter that much

Ask that question to the players. I wanna be the boshi (or something similar) is in my opinion a great map but no one has really played it. And well, there isn't really any point to it.

Would you prefer a decline over a release on fun?

Wdym any point to

You are basically saying points are the only motivation too play this game lol

For 99% of the maps it is

Nah this is wrong in so many ways

Release the next solo on fun and compare the amount of finishes/playtime to bouncy. Would be a great experiment

Than explain me why ppl play maps over and over

say that to linear/multeasy players

and those are like 20-40%

Bouncy is solo 1 and this would be probably 3-4

those are block maps. So they follow block maps logic. Anyways this is so offtopic

meta testing channel when

Also i wanna be a pro is pretty hard and unique

player wont play the map because there is points, for example the donjon by pulsar ravie (or only 1 of them i forgot) is not much played, and have a particular physics and kinda hard, but here it's worst because you hvae to restart everything when you fall

yeah please talk only about the map here, there will be a channel for other discussions soon but right now we need to do important communication on the current map

These super experimental maps are just not that popular

That's why giving points to it is even more important

will delete any comments that are about another debate than the map

Its about the map

i don't think this map is suitable for solo category because of huge punishments at least, there was a rule for that but now i don't see it

it's a more general discussion that does not really affect testing. you can discuss in

or

f

Points should never be a reason to play a map

Anyways Assa's perspective of not wanting to add it on fun does make sense. You generally don't want to add a map for it not to be played. Even less when it's already hosted elsewhere

If you want to continue this convo feel free to dm

But ddnet standarts are higher and this map isnt meeting them

this type of map will not be played a lot anyway

we are inevidably deciding if we release this or not depending on the gameplay itself and if we release it on solo, fun, or if Assa wouldn't want it to be released on fun which might result in a decline.

We wouldn't want this work to go to waste, it's a different kind of gameplay style than any other map, because it's mapped that way. Now some testers disagree with having this on one of our main categories, "forcing" people to play this if they want the points.

giving points shouldn't decide whether or not it should be released, but that's up to the mapper to decide, but i would like to discuss this with Assa themself, not with others.

if you'd like to make this a general discussion,

is a great place - as mentioned by Welf ^^

if standards means quality I disagree a bit. Like sure the route is not the best and things feel a bit messy/strange. But art wise it's way better than average. idk, maybe with some work gameplay fit those standards? I personally like this idea for a solo.

why creating branch is off here? it will be perfect cus it's keep interest and dint spam on main channel.smth like this

This is a bullshit comment, how is it not up to standard?

please be respectful

it's a different kind of gameplay style than any other map i dont personally see the appeal in culling any map with nonstandard gameplay. the result will be that every map feels the same a creative map will push boundaries a bit, why not encourage it

fun is for tictactoe and drawguess, not a map made for finish xd

i think you missunderstood my sentence completly ^^ - i like the map and voted for it to be released on solo - for your interest.

ok, well it is a response to others who point out that it is unteeish, and unteeish = bad

Imo its a cool map with a unique addicting concept, a nice design which is also pretty unique. Would be sad if it gets no release. Also i dont get the repetitive argument, while saying people play a map over and over again(also repetitive). Its the concept of the map/game, you get nervous while getting higher and higher. You get mad if you fall down the whole way but you keep trying cause its addicting, finnishing that kind of map is a good feeling^^

Like i already said, a lot of the gameplay is repetitive, i will go more into this with screenshots later this evening

I also wanna mention that just because something is unique it doesnt mean its good

We asked Assa, because the current compromise is to put it on fun, but it seems like Assa would not accept that. Still waiting for an answer

If you see 0 chances for a normal solo release its a fair compromise

should have put a lot of maps into fun then just because of funky mechanics

Fits fun category like iwbtg series 😄

You could argue iwbtg doesn't fit fun category.

i'd say this map is a bit more "teeish" than iwbtg

this map needs to show the player where to go sometimes, a few jumps so far are really way-off the camera, an arrow or some indicator would be nice

also a bit of map design since you're introducing a 'new' way of movement: it would be better to introduce players to the face they can dj midair and change direction before you introduce a really faily part like here

before this, the player only dj while standing still for bounce pads (so it would make more sense to introduce a part where they need to dj + move before you introduce this where they might fall hella long)

i feel like players should only fall a long distance when it's 100% their fault, not when they're put into a situation that they have not exactly seen before

some of the tiles are misleading

shouldnt totally fail this without proper warning somehow

maybe put a stop sign at the top because otherwise a player might just go down to discover it, yk?

‼️ disclaimer this is just my personal opinion on ways i think your map can be improved and doesn't reflect the official ddnet tester verdict on whether your map will get released on solo or not ‼️

these are just a few examples of repetitive gameplay

played trough the map

the jumps are either way too easy or too hard

and usually the hard jumps are more annoying making the map quite chokepoint heavy

also you can make 80% of the jumps just by jumping to edge and pressing a/d + space at the same time

I took a look at the fun category and I see

• Tic Tac Toe
• An adder
• two goldilocks machines
• A fucking DVD logo (okay, this one is amazing and I had to laugh 😄 ) And you think my map belongs there?

My map follows the official ddnet solo rules and I even adjusted it in order to fit them:

• Start line is now unskippable (this was adjusted)
• Added CPs
• Doesn't contain one of the listed bugs. Adjusted, contained speedtile bug
• Doesn't use fake entities
• Markings ✅
• Map name doesn't clash
• sv_solo_server 1 as map setting
• Spawn and totele at the ground
• No noob filter

My map is a racing map, it has a start, a finish and parts. I am aware, that it's not "traditional" teeworlds, but just custom physics/movement is not against the rules. I know i am really pedantic about this, but if my map doesn't belong into solo, please specify which rules it broke or add another rule to the list.

Next thing, points: Why do I want this map on solo in the first place? Because people don't play maps when they don't get points. And fun maps don't give you points, so there is no incentive for at least a subset of the playerbase. My goal is to share my map to an audience as big as possible. I agree, that points should not care, but apparently and empirically, they do care. Even I played all the Novice maps just to hunt some points. I wouldn't have any issues, if you put this map into the fun category but give it points.

What category would I put the map in? I would create a new category and call it

, because I don't simply hook a dummy over a map repetitively, but want to tell a story to the player. I knew from the beginning, that this map would cause a discussion.

I took this one as an insult, because a lot of ddnet maps are not up to MY standards. The maps often don't have details, just gameplay parts with a tileset automapped over it. (I know this sentence is too broad, but at least some maps are IMO)

Dont hate the DVD screensaver i have 8k finnishes on it

it's not about the rules them self but the style. my point of view is : the map have a broken physics so it's ok in fun (still interesting, great idea etc) but in solo it's not a great style (precise jump, restarting again and again, + gl for fixing the physics)

you should know that with this style of map, you will not have a lot of player on it even with points, but with points it will be pain to force player that want points to do that (don't take that as an insult you said yourself that it's a rage-type map).

They wont create a new category and people actually play maps cause of the difficulty/ gameplay and not cause of points. Volleyball is on the fun category and has a lot of playtime(4years). I wouldn't care so much on the category, fun server isnt a suppression of your work its just fits a bit better ig.

The design and story is crazy on this map, i think no one has any doubts about that, as for gameplay i really don't know. Bumm listed parts that are repetitive, those and bounce ones take like half of the playtime, falling down just demotivates to play because you will have to align to like 10 edges again which is (highly subjective) not very fun. While i enjoyed some parts, most just felt like fillers between the story or a place to make you fall and to do repetitive align-hold D/A + space process again.

but with points it will be pain to force player that want points to do that Why do insane maps have points them? If I want them, I am forced to play them. Also some other solo maps are incredibly hard, so this argument doesn't hold well. parts that are repetitive I admit, that some parts are a bit repetitive, this is a side effect of the limited movement set of the map. You don't have any hookables, just A, D and jump. falling down just demotivates to play You know, that the genre "rage-game" exists? And apparently people are playing this games, too, because it is so hard, you can be really proud of yourself if you finish this map!

number 1 is a sideeffect of the physics, yes. This is unfixable, even impossible to fix I never experienced number 2, did you really not press d? This is nothing that my physics should do, and if they do, then there is a bug in the game (and not in my settings)

Number 2 keeps happening to me all the time and failed me over more than just a few times.

Send a demo so I can look at inputs

You split the thing, having repetitive parts with fails that make you go through them many times isn't too cool

if number 1 can't be fix, having a random aspect is not great, for number 2 i didn't press, and i think the same things happens on the bed jump it bounce you in the opposite direction (can try by yourself jump press and stop press ) for insane map it's not the same, it's difficulty, here it have some novice jump and then mega precise insane jump (that can be fix so it's not the biggest problem, it that it's combine with falling 10 km down, but i prefer talking about global aspect for now before talking about gameplay.

number 1 isn't random, you can moonwalk with skill

and a random player can try to stay on a platform and moonwalf and fall

think about it, your ground_accelleration is negative and your air acceleration is positive, what do you have to press on the ground while landing in order to walk?

Ew decline map

Ew, my Soap is Sandwich.

true

Plus, isn't ddnet a rage-game kinda in the first place?

I could rant, that at other maps you fail and are lying freezed on the ground and forced to restart, but whatever

Sleep on it beeing released on fun server 😄 Sounds fair to me

be respectful please

Some map issues are still open, like from

. I will take a look tomorrow, but thank's for the feedback!

Fine I'll be respectful XD

The use of bounce tunes was rather annoying in this map.
Gaining height slowly with a tiny jump felt more punishing than enjoyable. The use of bounce tiles at the cannon was more interesting and I'd prefer to see more like that.

This spot needs an arrow or something cause the part is too easily skipped which seems weird

Some of the hard jumps imo are too rough but maybe I am just bad XD

Not a fan of this wind here, you keep jumping in and out of the fast arrows which just feels unpredictable and annoying.
It would be better if you couldnt jump out the arrows at the top and the speed affecting you stayed consistent.

You shouldn't have speeders going into walls here. It is far too easy to get the speeder bug. It isn't ok to have that happen as its the end of the map and it kills you if you get it.

You should also add a roof at the top of the map just incase anyone accidentally gets a speed bug that you missed.

I think in it's current difficulty most players will rage quit the map but that isn't really a reason for declining, I think more people would enjoy and want to continue playing your map if it was a bit less punishing.

Whatever happens its a neat little map XD

hes right its cuz ground friction -0.5 pulls u in opposite direction if u buffer jump

friction 0 wil stopp momentum and 0.5 (default) will continue it

idk which is intended but i tink 0 is closlest to jump king

btw are these slides intended

i assume not (cuz its ddnet bug and so unfixable) but its less liekly to happen on accident with lower ground accel

air accel is 1.5 so ground accel wshould be < -1.5

i didnt see a difference going lower than -2

there are three solutions to this jump and this is one of them

also this is not a bug? (in the video)

I'll take a look at the settings again, thank you for the feedback 👍

I think ground accell is lower than air accel, meaning, you have like 3 ticks until you go to to a full stop on the ground. So you can slide off of edges. This is intended. Originally this parts were intended to be solved by moonwalking (which is btw explained in the map but nobody discovered this so far #adventure map)

At this part you can also jump into the gap and get forcefully pushed by the speedtile still having your jump, which is the easiest solution for the first of them

I am at work so I'll take a look again in the evening

nobody discovered this so far fall into the water on the fishing part and jump left

no xd

can be done everywhere

no, we are not talking about the trick, but the artwork describing it

ah lol

mb

Thank you for the respectful & useful feedback, I missed to fix this ones, I think if every instance is fixed there wouldn't be a roof needed! Now a point on my bug tracker

ah ok wwasn't sure bc slide isn't forced anywhere

i tink sllide trivializes some parts though

like soapy said here its easier than doing jumps https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/1310020925722198067/1310374407549616198, here its easier than finding the setup https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/1310020925722198067/1310166587256471575, and here its just way lamer than intended whch imo was really really cool https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/1310020925722198067/1310408910271676426

also accel -2.5 or so would prevent softlock completely from the right side like here https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/1310020925722198067/1310032567675916288, ik louis also got stuck here in his first run but its pretty early in the map ¯_(ツ)_/¯

up to u though, then again there is a full leaderboard of finishers on ddrock with old version XD

idk if ddracers are goated with the sauce like that

Ok i played the whole map and thats what i think. this is good physics, and i wanna see this on ddnet. it fells not bad. when i say physics i talk about this

but some parts have a issue which i dont wanna see on ddnet with this physics. for example this

Gaining height slowly with a tiny jump felt more punishing than enjoyable. i say the same here first i wanna talk about dj, its weird cus it have impulse where gameplay like it's not allowed to jump in the air. And this mechanic is annoying cus it takes so long cus dj is so small. and u annoyed not cus its hard, but cus its so boring especially second screen. Also i dont like wind. too much spam not fun to play it will beter if u remove it at all imho im not against the wind im against speedups, if u find other way to do it it will be good.

I really liked snow but there are very few snow parts. It's not enough for me i manna more like x2 maybe x3

Repetative gameplay is fine if its enjoy, for example hh maps. but in ur case some is just bad. i give some examples

Bugs i dont see issue here (i dont talk about bugs like this they destroy gameplay) if u can control bug then is feature. ||im not sure and maybe i didnt test enough where this bug is really annoying ||

Hard jumps i think u need mark hard jumps on map and there should be very few of them, I think there should be no more than 10 in the whole map.

summarise the current state of the map, it should be declined. You need to rework 40% of the map and that's a lot. If you are not ready to work on the map you can release it in the fan category. Remember that decline doesn't mean the map won't be released, it means that there are a lot of changes that need to be made. And there are already a lot of maps that have been declined, then done a lot of work on it and then released. if u have question feel free to ask) im redy to help u release this map.

I dont see no fan category tho

Oh i mean fun*

dw triki is not a tester he can't decline

wait for testers

You can jump directly to the right, you can directly do a skip from there, I never actually do the jump in the video xD

As I said before, I am fine with that softlock. It's very early in the map and the only one I know

"full leaderboard" 16 people, including me and a tester

??? xD

is actually -0.5, I will check if there are side effects and why I did this 😦

Also i dont like wind. too much spam not fun to play it will beter if u remove it at all imho im not against the wind im against speedups, if u find other way to do it it will be good. Sorry, but I disagree with the first part, first there is a ice, and you think omg, it's slippy D: Then there is wind, and you think omg, wind is gonna push me off And then there is strong wind, and sometimes even not because you jump out of it

At the end the map gets really hard and this is intended

There is unfortunately no other way then doing this with speedtiles. There are no physics other then gravity which can push players and I don't think that laser-pull-things are right here

The end jump is the hardest jump of the map, 3 times in a row, you call it repetitive, I call it pressure, because you can very easily fail there! I fully disagree with that stance.

You just need to give ppl money like on ddr and youll have like 5000 russians playing it on release

your second picture doesn't involve any repetitive jumps, just similar ones. You can skip the bottom ladder part

we should've released 2longer

Sometimes parts are traveling or part of the story/mapdesign. There is some repetivieness in the map, can't deny that

Hard jumps i think u need mark hard jumps on map and there should be very few of them, I think there should be no more than 10 in the whole map What is a hard jump for you? The first message here says btw, that pathfinding is part of the map. That's why the CP placement is like this and that's why there are some blind jumps. You need to spec and find out how to get up, that's a bit like puzzle-ling

What is a hard jump for you? jumps where u need press space on last 9 pixels of block and u hard punish player for miss

if celeste got away with wind then this map can too

I checked your demo, yes you aren't pressing D, you are pressing A when landing. Since your ground acceleration is negative, it means, you move in the opposite direction. If you change the physics of the map and make ground_control_speed 1, you see you have INVERTED movement, so this is behaving as intended. Ofc. you'll say it's unexpected, but this is part of the map and movementset you need to learn

There are now 6 instances, 3 in the ship, 3 at the end, the 3 in the ship you can repeat as much as you want (and learn it), the 3 at the end are designed to be punishing (and heartbreaking 💔 )

The 7ths is patched out ( I have Dev role, I say patch)

well I release A in air and am pressing nothing after landing. the only force applied there is friction

try setting friction to 0, and keep ground accel negative

I am currently checking this, is anything else affected by friction? checking code

no

Friction only applies when m_Direction is 0 (no input), i guess you are right

Now I understand what you and

had for a problem here, I'll fix this

oh wtf ur right I never knew that XD

low detail should imo actually make the map have less detail

fps drops from 430 to 200 switching from entities to design

and i cant imagine how my older laptops will run

confirmed a physics bug, sliding and moonwalking still possible, now your autojump get's corrected to 0 x velocity (directly up)

read DETAILS

yeah

cool idea but it shouldnt work like that

what about here?

yes, this is not an easy jump, what do you mean?

it's even harder to use sliding to your advantage because there is just one tile to stand on, I see the sliding as only an obstacle tothe player

why would you slide there

you wouldn't even do this on accident without a really bad miss-input

you can't help it, if you press early you will move too far, if you press close to the ground there is not enough time to release

you don't need sliding for finishing the map, you need sliding for finishing the map fast, I slide at the top of the church btw

im a little hurt by these words I didn't know I skissued so hard

yes exactly I'm saying that most of time I slide it's an accident

sorry 🙈 I believe in you, you can do it! The greater the obstacle, the more glory in overcoming it!

it feels less in my control than if you had, say, ground_control_accel -2.5

you might go so far as to call it 'buggy' because the player will get an unexpected outcome more often than not

and about this

you don't need it to finish the map I think it's generally tricky when mapping to juggle multiple paths

returning to this example for a moment https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/1310020925722198067/1310408910271676426, when I saw someone use the speedups it blew my mind a little and if I were mapping this I wouldn't want players to do it any other way

I feel that with a few other places I listed here. there is actually some cool or well-thought out parts, but players will take the path of least resistance 😔

Update:

• fixed physics bug, thank to

and

, without your demos and videos I would have never ever found this!

• fixed a CP4 tile at the false place, thanks

❤️

• fixed a row of speedtiles missed which still cause speedtile bug, respectful thanks to

either a skip is too free or the intended, no-slide way is easily overlooked. just something to consider

This booster strategy you find so cool .... was unintended 😅 I saw others doing it and then decided it was cool, but this was not the way I had in mind to solve this

the boosters in the corner there only exist for players not to be stuck there

it's fine, you can let it be intended now. that was louis's first approach, so at least he thought it was

its what I meant by saying slide trivializes some parts. for the sake of discussion, try comparing it to moonwalking. I think the starting skip builds intrigue and the player wonders how it's done, and there are subtle hints in design which nod to the hidden mechanic. It's very hard to do on accident so no problems there. it reminds me of the way secrets are hidden in the game TUNIC. perfectly captures the feeling of adventure, pure genius

i didn't hold anything upon landing

you held D on landing, don't lie

otherwise you can't slide

and this is a known feature

I see several reasons to make slide less likely to happen on accident (

) and few to keep it as is (

)

I think you know best so I won't speak anymore on the topic of slide, gl with releasd ♡ゝ◡╹❤

this would make moonwalking harder, you only have 3 frames for it rn, then this trick would be 1 frame

what is that feature for may i ask

and you can't patch it out

moonwalking, there is a guide hidden on the map 😉, because your steering is inverted on the ground

hm, I hadn't considered this. you can try to make the skip more rewarding for speedrunners to compensate

this would make sliding a bigger issue

welcome to the world of balancing, I think I already found the sweetspot there

i used /r at the very end

i might be dumb tho

?! you didn't jump but the prediction thought you were

bind moment

that's why you are snapped back

what do you mean with the sword? All slopes in the map are not tiles, (I wish so much that ddnet has slopes)

agreeing on this one. I'll add a pixelart

: Image 1: really IZ part: TUTORIAL boring: you missed a trick, I showed you blue: what?

whats the point of putting bouncy on the wall when it barely changes anything

Image 2: really easy: yes, actually, you can skip a lot there, I don't think the left is too easy, but okay black: yes, pathfinding, requires intelligence, you can linup and hold right there btw, but you'll fall down the first tries red: yes I am a mean bastard, also tuning tile 10-13 are the mean messages and you fall right into them, it's not as bad as you thought, since you don't need 10 seconds of random bouncing

if they barely change anything, they can stay there right? Also you need to know what "bluish slime" does for the later actual bounce part. This informs the player what this does.

Image 3: you miss like 3 cuts there, yes the first part is repetitive, true, I don't find this jumps too easy tho, but I think for you they are too easy

Image 4:

• yes some part of the church are very easy, for the left organ you need some skill or understand the setup, also this part is essential for the story I want to tell.
• you can slide on the top of the chruch
• red: you have the anchor and can always save your jump
• orange: you miss a cut?
• yes ignore the ramps in the ship

stuck

I have an idea what I do about this

I will always be able to be stuck there, but I make it less probable

For whoever complains about too many chat messages, you can turn this off in the client settings

Update:

• I changed the moonwalk skip at the start, Too many people were stuck there and you were able to get struck from the other side now, now its much much better

You can still get stuck in this, but at least only from one side and not at the corner there anymore

This is also more in line with the original

I've really not felt informed while doing this. I didn't even realise there was bounce tiles there. It feels rather useless

And, as I said earlier, I think it would be REALLY great if you added 1 or 2 tiles of gravity tune to make the bounces not boring. +5 djs for an auto part is everything but enjoyable

I already said you before, this is not how bouncing works, and you just gain speed there, because you jump from low to high gravity

I tested it locally. It does work :/

also putting any changed gravity there would feel very out of place

And feels smooth

actual troll, sorry 😦

:///

I'll send a demo...

I believe you, but I think this wouldn't be good there

Dw, I'll try sending a video if I can (I suck at making demos). You'll be free to judge afterwards if it's worth or not ^^'

actually more interesting then I thought

but I have an idea what we can do with the bed

Great then. I'm curious

didn't read all (just the image from iku) but just want to add that i think you should develop more on some cool aspect like this parts

for example on the part devinci mentioned boring to rejump, you could force the fast way you showed me, it will have a brain and trick aspect without being hard to do, if you develop thing like this on other parts it would be great and better than going on edge for a long and precise jump

Map channel has been moved to waiting mapper.

i too motioned here this is a cool part) but this part more like relax one and idk if possible create a harder but still cool.

I agree on the first picture, more parts like this would be cool. But don't agree on forcing the fast way. I mean players can decide themselfes which way they go. Finding out new ways is part of the game

I wouldn't mind closing up the easy long way, The long and boring way is for beginners who wouldn't be able to find this in the first place

what do you think of instead of removing the 1 tile gap on top, blocking the slide, so people can gather height there?

Now sure i understand what you mean, but what i said is just an idea adapt as you want

Things on my TODO list right now:

• add stop signs/warning pixel arts for the ice part where you don't want to fall
• add think/brain or question mark pixel art signs for the blind jumps, I refuse to make an arrow, enter ominman think-meme here
• close off noob route on the left, I know the perfect height for this, I'll also place a sign there
• add something to bed, might still end up with 2 or 3 jumps but I guess that's better. The "old"/easy/noob way of solving this will still be there After this I'll revert back to ready

maybe I'll add something in the background in order to make it easier to lineup the blind jump

https://i.imgflip.com/9bocex.jpg

idk, this would go in 1 jump, what do you think?

I think this is better, 3 jumps

1 but if u press it correct like on video

Update:

• added warn signs suggested by

• force the smarter way at the mine, suggested by

• add a lantern that allows a 2 way setup for the bed, suggested by everyone who was annoyed by some repetition
• add some question mark signs for the player in order to indicate brain usage

Update:

• fixed a small visual bug occuring due to a tileset not beeing empty anymore at one tile

This is ready btw, without new feedback I won't change anything anymore

I'd love to take a look but I just don't have time at the moment..

i dont like this zone with stronger wind.

skill issue?

hidden trap issue.

That's rough buddy

me?

it is annoying how you change from fast wind to slow wind in a single jumps especially near the top

oh you're wrong, you switch from fast wind to no wind, making this jumps challanging and exciting. Remember this map is not supposed to be a free-bee, the top parts are supposed to be hard. If I just make this strong wind others will complain it's too easy and uncreative. It's not too hard tho, you can learn to deal with this and this doesn't feel random. It's supposed to be annoying and a challange to the player, but the greater the pleasure is after making it to the tower

the issue is here that the game tiles are indicated by quads (moving snow particles). it feels a bit random, especially without entities. mapping rules: "Every entity that the player should know about should likewise be clearly marked with a visible tile."

yeah, it's not technically random but it's extremely hard to tell when you get halted bceause the design isn't clear cut

which makes it so you basically never know unless you've tried the part mutliple times

if you ahve better ideas to indicate wind, go ahead!

I've already told you what the best way is for me. idk maybe u skip it i repeat it again. wind on tw i super spammable better remove it at all. and replace it with snow-slide effect. some stuff is impossible to do in tw u need understand it or wait new feature. idk why u trying keep this wind. u dont have enough ideas? or u just dont wanna rework?

im again rough ? feelbadman

"It's supposed to be annoying and a challange to the player"

This map is inspired by JumpKing, apparently you never saw this game and it's wind stage

also these platforms already have the snow-ice effect on them

There is no other option to push a player to a left or right direction except speedtiles

https://youtu.be/9_W-3lAljes?t=173

but I have an idea to indicate the strong windy places by some tiles in the background

you could add a subtle fog effect when in snow

like a transparent quad that also covers the player

hmm, if you mean one that follows the player, this would be impossible here, because I can only clip a rectangular region But you mean a static one, I am thinking about how it may look and how to make it look good

i mean a really tall quad with a massive para so that it appears the moment you touch snow

kinda like I did in my Halloween map

so it blinks into existence when entering, this only works properly if it's a square region, too

hmm maybe if I do it with parax = 100 and paray = gigantic and use pillars of quads, I'll look into it

this would cause this effect to flicker in and out of existance if you're unlucky

No this doesn't work here at all, because it's not a square region, also it looks weird

ye in game this is so perfect but tw dont have this features.

tw also doesn't let you hold space to jump higher but the map still exists

its inspired, not a direct copy

ye i too notice that)

next best thing are unfortunately speed tiles

and you can't say, that it's not working. You can say, that it can be indicated better, which is hard to do

Christmas event is over, is this going to be uploaded to ddnet server or no?

Relax, people need a break. It's the holiday season!

i dont think others will complain its too easy and uncreative, in fact i'm sure many would say the top section is probably the hardest of the map

also, you can't tell the testers and players that something 'doesn't feel random' or that something can be 'learnt to deal with', rather you should take our opinions and try to see our point of view instead of trying to justify why your map doesn't need changes.

i would rather the fast wind be extended more upward so you're not half fast wind half no wind on the final jumps -- the last 3 jumps of the entire map are punishing and hard enoguh tbh

the jump king wind is different, from the video, you know exactly when the wind will change as the animation swaps. in this map, the particles don't really give a clear boundary and so it can be really difficult to tell unless you're in entities (which is still difficult since you're bombarded with a bunch of speeders and numbers)

This sounds a bit like I am not open to changes, but I am, otherwise I wouldn't have updated the map in the first place. It's more, that I am missing good suggestions here. Yes, I can add more fast wind tiles on top, but then I'd need to add more animations or make a better indication. I understand your point, the particles don't give a clear boundry, but I am a bit clueless how to make the boundry clearer. Would you find it okay, if I am adding slow wind instead? Or should I add fastwind and adjust the animation? Lastly there will always be a part where you switch from fastwind to lower winds at this place in the map, no matter how many speed tiles I add above

Maybe should I make a gradient in speed change ?

I think a gradient meaning gradually switching from high speed to low/no speed would be a good solution here, anybody agree/disagree?

a gradual increase in difficulty sounds good - so you can atleast partly get used to it

also nothing is properly marked in this part imo

which makes it really unpredictable

on design it looks like you should be able to fit in there but its all solid tiles

maybe try making the wheel bigger or something

I wanted to say that too, but I didn't have time.

wtf you can do that on both sides oO

Tasklist for me:

• Redo church jump (yet again, I am also not so happy with it
• evaulate yet another row of speedtile bug, like seriously wtf fix the game Thank you

for your feedback

Map channel has been moved to waiting mapper.

Note from me: I didn't forget this, I am just very busy atm

its fine, nobody hurry up you

ok, the channel might get archived automatically

just resubmit in that case

I liked the wind, this map isnt ultra precise where you need to see the exact moment fast wind ends and particles do a good enough job while looking interesting

I have heard, that placing speedtiles without max speed doesn't cause this bug, can anybody confirm this?

@Teero

I was able to confirm it myself, the code for speedtiles with max speed is such a mess ...

• fixed speedtile bug for both sites, speedtiles are now much cleaner

I still need to redo the church jump a billionth time, so this is still waiting for mapper

can anybody else confirm, that that stupid bug is gone for now? I am aware of the site effect for more "unlimited" speed

it is noticable, but just slightly and it's still better than the alternative

Spamming speed-up tiles usually results in a drop of FPS

We need

and his shit PC to experience it

I could also implement wind into ddnet, but the other devs said "why? no"

This is the crux of mapping against the limit of an engine

yes

max speed is the broken thing

It actually does, tried on crappy laptop

adding a lot of quads also does it, that's where clipping helps

That's very debatable

600 fps staring at nothing 200 fps everywhere else 120fps on wind part

the 120fps on an old laptop is better than 500fps on a new laptop

120fps is playable

industry threshold is 60

Can ppl even tell the difference? xD Isnt it only bad when the fps isnt consistent

on my new laptop because of screen tearing and input lag 500fps feels like 30 on other systems

I think this tells more about your new laptop than about 120 fps being low

yup, never buying from [BRAND] again

I eat [BRAND] for breakfast, because it keeps the doctor away

When release

2025, probably

I need to rework the church jump a last time, I am currently not happy with it. And the next thing is a potential speedtile fix, which would be nice, but maybe not necessary, for this map

• reworked the church jump yet again

yes you jump into the wheel, you just jump behind it

IMO this map is now ready, but I'd love to wait for some feedback for the new speedtiles

new speedtile is merged, however bot might not be ready yet and while the change is merged, the new speedtiles are not out yet, they come with the next client version

u dont want to add them here?

ofc I do?

you can set the state of this to "waiting for devs"

ok i was just unsure it wasnt clear

i'll set to waiting

if it doesnt get added in a few weeks then someone should remind a tester to reset -> waiting again

Reminder, that I am wainting for ddnet 19.1 in order to switch to the new speedtiles

🆕

cool map f3 I LOVE IT

update: DDNet 19.1 comes out next week, see https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/420565311863914496/1352959719748276225 I am preparing the map in the next week

19.1 released

• swapped all speedtiles to the new ones
• checked cannon again
• checked wind part again

update the bot please

bad bot

:(

retry as asked by mod

good bot

:3

• fix old speedtile on anchor, in mermaid bra and in magic tower

cat sounds are 30s long, even though they last 1s

if you know how to do it better, tell me

ah so it is like that so it doesnt play too often?

bcs the bell sound is 2s and it rings very often

almost too often for a big bell

yes, but the meow is supposed to be rare

you could use the sound/volume envelope. turn the volume off/on for 29/1 secs

though I'm not sure, are sounds synced with server or client time?

I tried this, this desyncs over time

what tool did you use to measure the length of the audio file? I could imagine its hard to get precise info

This is peak map changelog

audacity, I got it exactly to 30.000 ms, also the files should still be exactly this long

also this doesn't really increase filesize, since it adds just emptiness

Ok here is my feedback. over all map is very good. here some jumps which i dont like. 1 if player try this way he will punish so hard.

i dont like this jump cus punishing is so hard. Player dont know how its work. u need give him lesson with this type of jumps earlier or less punishing.

fake, i dont like it.

ok again about wind. u can just put 3 diferent wind zones just like that. dont mix it up on one jump. u can do it if player will touch only one zone in one jump. players need consistent, but u broke this rule which is so bad for me.

also i know why u put 4x times jump like this but if player mistake its too punishing.

punish so hard when the hard and precise map turns out to be hard and precise

your entire argument is "i have a skill issue pls fix"

please put your energy into actually testing the map and not testing others tests

map requires brain, precision and overall, endurance, can we not patch out the hard parts please?

Only if I can beat them.

i only focus on jumps which dont fit well, u know for example this Jump is not hard, but it doesn't fit well into the map. Its not skill issue its more about lvldesign. When u first try this jump this is so random. And i see only one way its use practice but for if u force players to practice ur map this way its bad.

so on map u need balance and this what i try to do better.

i have a skill issue pls fix p.s I can also do 1 tile hole kill 10x in a row and say something about skill issue.

btw, this is not the intended strat there, but I am reapeating myself at this point

ye? first time hear that, mb then and all fine. i just overthinking this part.

Is this map really suited for ddnet?

It looks more like ddrock

Its well made, has a unique mechanic and imo is fun to play, so why wouldnt it be?

are you saying ddrock is non well made unfun to play maps?

today would be the perfect day for a release for this 😛

also this guy is on ddrock and just doesn't want the map to be released here.

Im explaining why this map is suited for ddnet, nothing more

i agree that this map is releaseable here on ddnet tho

before release this map u need solve problem with wind. imho.

I don't see a problem with it. imho.

this is meant to be hard unfair and punishing

Just like the original game 👍

perfect day ? it's a troll map ? may be a decline then

which guy?

If you played for a bit longer you wouldve seen that the second "bug" is actually an intended mechanic required to do some jumps

The first one looks to me like you just slipped off the edge again and dj-ed after

i dont really get what you mean can you provide some videos, how can this be an intended way of jumping when you cant jump at all when this happens

Cant do a video rn cuz its late, but the idea is that by slipping off the edge you can gain decent distance + have a low hight dj

I think there are drop downs that use it

(Probably above the 50% point)

Might actually be this https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/1310020925722198067/1355909818476527656

for the second clip, that you can slide of an edge is inteded, that you didn't get a jump back, is the normal edge bug which I can do nothing about

was about to say that about the 2nd clip, thats just ddnet things

I wouldn't have anything against a fun release, if you give the map a single mappoint for finishing. I already ranted about the categories, this is not a short gimmick map like all other fun maps. We also release brutal maps, why are they allowed to be hard and punishing but not this?

I don't think we need to reopen the entire discussion about the ranking topic on this map really. But rest assured it's still up to us testers to give it a final ready ^^

Will you include the new speeders btw? They seem great for fixing the undefined behaviour we had at the top section of the map.

Oh I'm blind

I already did that 😄

Yeah xD I just saw the changelog, sry I'm eepy

From my point of view, despite the discussions above about punishment, this map is ready. I get a strong impression, that the last discussions are all players who don't like or play rage games, which I totally understand. Finishing this map is an acomplishment, and I still want it as such. Making the end easier would be against the point of this map

I unfortunately agree with what he just said. It's a shame, and it's not your fault, but your map just amplifies bugs in this game

How often did you get slip ups without dj? Or maybe it was something else?

a lot bcs i tried to do it "perfectly"

I don't know if it's this slide that bothers me the most, to be honest.

I have over a 100 hours of gameplay in this map and, while I got this bug on occasion, it's still very rare. I don't follow your narrative there

I think you just gotta drop the perfectionist mindset since the r1 on this map wont be decided by how close to the edge you drop

nerfing myself is not enjoyable

As you wish, I'm just sharing my experience

the map get's a lot easier if you slide down on purpose or use autojumps, which i am used to

If your way doesnt work then its not a buff But aside from that why exactly is this map not good enough for release? Design is good, gameplay is tested well, its creative and the only thing that is holding it back is the ddnet bug which is preventable if you just use more of the block for a drop?

oh it can be really enjoyable to nerf yourself, like a challange, all of youtube if full of challenges where people don't use X/Y/Z in a game

Well im going to stop giving my opinion

i feel like im hurting people

ending is kinda unfun IMO especially with the changing wind speeds

have a nice one

no it's just that I am already "defending" my map for months now, almost half a year, please don't take it personal

feeling like in court here

Idk, for me the changing wind is much easier than the last 3 jumps in the tower

at least we can clearly see how the difficulty increases over the stages of the map ^^ yes the end is hard, but it's so rewarding to finish then

easier sure but not as fun

you think with constant speed this would be more fun?

just dont change the speed in the middle of jumps

i dont see how anyone finds that fun, it's just annoying to get flung over when i'm used to a different speed from the first half of the jump

its also just not how wind works, it doesn't automatically fall off, usually theres a smooth transition

oh it does, if you have ever hidden behind a bilding in a storm

Sorry but I still disagree, for me it was funny when I saw the wind in practice mode and got to experience it Sure, maybe I will have a different opinion about it in the real run, but from my practice attempts I felt like there was quite a lot of control to land these jumps

https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/1310020925722198067/1356729286182178947

Maybe thats because of my experience with Getting Over It and Jump King but I really dont mind it being a little unfair

other games have no part in this conversation imo, this is ddnet not a rage game

I made a rage map in ddnet, ofc it does

well we can disagree, i just think the wind is unfun

this is the point of this map

I wrote this map is inspired by JumpKing, like in the first 2 sentences in this channel

ddnet has many map styles inside of it, pretty sure there are a lot of maps which can cause rage XD

Do you think every map released in the last 2-4 years if fun for everyone?

ya, but i believe we shouldn't rate this map on different standards of balance / fairness just because it resembles a rage game

I think even this map or maps like this has their place

ofc not, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt take into account the general opinion of funness

What is your opinion about that shotgun climb map?

it's all the same gameplay, you just shotgun and hook and jump

I think the standards on "balance/fairness" are not well defined in the first place You are saying the map shouldnt be the exception to the rule, but not only are the rules blurry, but also a lot of other maps dont seem to be exactly fair and balanced (especially insanes and solo 5*) Not only that but I think even then this map passes simply because it can stand on its own (even if I didnt know it was based on Jump King it still looks and plays good)

Or does the challange come from the parts and from climbing higher and higher and the fear of falling down?

Honesrly im surprised that there is such a fuss about difficulty when in the past it was the least important factor in getting a release

Imo a lot of the "unfairness" feelings come from the fact that you see yourself falling a lot But if you compare it to like any kill tile map its less unfair since you dont just tp to spawn after the slightest mistake

I really really made sure, that you can only full-fail in the deathtiles at the bottom or in that one shortcut position. The rest should be unfailable (you can't die and don't get perma stucked)

this is also the reason for the speedtiles below the altair in the church

Would this game make DDNet worse? No Will some people have fun playing it? Yes Is this map good in what it wants to be? Yes I dont understand why we start the whole discussion if its rlsable/fun again xd Only discussion point for me is that we should put it on Fun Server

Only issue with fun-category for me is the mappoints

im not even sure why we're arguing about releasability or not, i only have a problem with the wind part. i never said i wouldnt vote to release this

the riskyness of failing at the end is fine and does make finishing feel more rewarding, im talking about the specific wind part feeling jank asf when the speed suddenly changes. it's just unfun IMO

and unfortunately a big part of the testing system works by aggregating the opinions of testers and if most of them find it fun/releaseable, a map gets released

I don’t see what this map has to offer other than very uncreative and basic gameplay that’s only special due to a buggy tune tbh

The design is really cool tho!

What buggy tune? There was a bug that one tune was off, was really hard to find and debug

but it's fixed now

I might not be up to date in this case. This is just my opinion that I shared internally many months ago. I might check it again but I still think that the tune is the only thing making it somewhat special unfortunately

Okay I have no clue what you're talking about, the map has overall > 100 tunes in different tune zones and about 13 per zone (maybe I have the exact numbers wrong)

I find it sad, that this is all basic and uncreative for you, as I don't know any map I could compare this to?

I‘m talking about the “main“ one that’s used throughout the whole map and influences your movement

ah the negative ground acceleration, it's still in

okay i tested the whole map again, and i have a few questions will you fix the slide issue? (there are a lot lot lot lot of parts where you have to go far-max edge to be able to do the part = a lot of fail potential duo to slide bug) i heard someone offered you a (better) tune which would cause less harmful slides, why do you insist on keeping the current tune? are you fixing the repetive parts? (you have a lot of good stuff but also a lot of copy paste)

I also think its absurd that some testers are pretty quiet about the obvious gameplay flaws this map has, for example the speeder part, its literally a full troll rage baiting part, if you would add something like this in any other map every tester would go crazy on you xd

I just dont see it as a fair and worthy solo release in it current status, its gameplay wise also way closer to IWannaBeatTheMap 1 & 2 than to any other solo map

I dont share your opinion of having rage maps in other categorys and last but not least i want to say that ddnet has never been a rage game for me and i think for most others and so i think it's just inappropriate to add a map that was created specifically to make others rage, as you have said several times, you want the map to score points so that everyone who farms points is forced to deal with the map

Need to disect this one a bit:

will you fix the slide issue? (there are a lot lot lot lot of parts where you have to go far-max edge to be able to do the part = a lot of fail potential duo to slide bug)

• You mean the not getting the double jump back? I can do nothing about this, you are touching the ground between ticks and this is a well known game bug
• Or do you mean that you slide a bit when landing on the ground? Then respectfully its a skill issue, try to autojump more, as you do 1 tick jumps and don't slide off an edge.

are you fixing the repetive parts? (you have a lot of good stuff but also a lot of copy paste)

The map plays with the fear of falling down, yes there are some repetitive parts, most of them are above a place where you can fall a lot. Also I somehow need to connect creative/interesting parts with each other and limited myself not to use teleports, as it's closer to the game this is inspired on.

and last but not least i want to say that ddnet has never been a rage game for me and i think for most others and so i think it's just inappropriate to add a map that was created specifically to make others rage, as you have said several times, you want the map to score points so that everyone who farms points is forced to deal with the map

This is just one map in a mapstyle, why limit yourself to certain styles if ddnet has more to offer? You have an opinion on rage map, I do have one, too. Both are valid and should be heard, maybe an admin decision is needed here.

Once again, how are you complaining about a "rage map" when there are literally kill tiles maps which tp you back to spawn after any mistake? Also whats up with this "everyone who farms points will have to deal with it"? If you are going to 100% ddnet expect going out of your comfort zone, and if you dont - just dont play it. Its not even insane difficulty so it wont stop every leaderboard player dead in the tracks

i heard someone offered you a (better) tune which would cause less harmful slides, why do you insist on keeping the current tune? There was a fix suggested for a tune, which was also implemented. Otherwise I don't know what you are talking about. Setting negative acceleration even higher would also make reverse-slides harder, which is already a 3 frames window.

I agree with that one and I am pretty sure, the people who are going for 100% are having no trouble finishing this map

I played the map and really enjoyed it. Had the slide off bug once. If i had to change one thing about this map, it be the changing wind. Id make it all the same speed or separate the two kind of winds in different parts so they are not connected together. I skipped that part after 20min. Skillissue ? Yea probably. Still i didnt like how it feels changing between the speedtiles. Everything else nicely done, only would change the cannon text from "better jump late" to "better jump once you hit the wall trust me" since a few people i testet with all tried to jump below the roof. "Jump late" isnt really specific. And you cant know how the cannon behaves the first time. But thats only my opninon. Nice map!

And id like to see it as an solo map. Not as a fun map

Everything else nicely done, only would change the cannon text from "better jump late" to "better jump once you hit the wall trust me" Thank you, I'll do that 👍 sounds better

I don't think the map is anywhere near a releaseable point atm. I played the map for a single minute and died three times due to game bugs and I don't think it's fair to the players if you release a map that is largely all about the perfect jump+movement while you have this gliding edge bug in the game, it just amounts to you as a player failing a lot without it really being your fault. i think about it like part of gameplay where u need adaptive, so its fine for me

and also i think he balance map around this "bug"|| so its not bug its feature||

If you think ur wind is the same as on original game, ur wrong. Your wind is totally different concept.(worst way) louis explain here

look at this part where ppl dont go practice this wind. and u will see a problem with balance.

Do you mean that without practice this part is bad? Or did I misunderstand you?

You mean the not getting the double jump back? I can do nothing about this, you are touching the ground between ticks and this is a well known game bug

Yes, I understand that you cant do anything about this, so we dont have to go into this again, I just wanted to point this out so the testers are aware of this

The map plays with the fear of falling down, yes there are some repetitive parts, most of them are above a place where you can fall a lot. Also I somehow need to connect creative/interesting parts with each other and limited myself not to use teleports, as it's closer to the game this is inspired on.

I understand this kind of, but I think there are still spots that are a lil bit to retitive but again I will leave this to the testers to decide whats fine and whats to much I just want to point out that you really should consinder to rework the speeder part since a lot of people are complaing about it (louis, StormPhoenix and more)

This is just one map in a mapstyle, why limit yourself to certain styles if ddnet has more to offer? You have an opinion on rage map, I do have one, too. Both are valid and should be heard, maybe an admin decision is needed here.

Once again, how are you complaining about a "rage map" when there are literally kill tiles maps which tp you back to spawn after any mistake? Also whats up with this "everyone who farms points will have to deal with it"? If you are going to 100% ddnet expect going out of your comfort zone, and if you dont - just dont play it. Its not even insane difficulty so it wont stop every leaderboard player dead in the tracks

Like i already said it just doesn't feel like a solo map for me, I saw people join the server and ask "this is a fun map, right?", so ye it just splits the community pretty much, lets just wait for a final tester decision

I dont think ddnet has currently a map I would consider as a rage map like this, maybe you mean maps like Catharsis? But I wouldn't call Catharsis a rage map, it has way more flow and fairness compared to this, for me there is a difference between hard and ragebaiting to just hard and faily maps, maybe you don't have a line between these two things and therefore they are the same for you?

There was a fix suggested for a tune, which was also implemented. Otherwise I don't know what you are talking about. Setting negative acceleration even higher would also make reverse-slides harder, which is already a 3 frames window.

Sadly I don't know the player that joined our testing session and he just told me about it so I can't provide any other information (I think we can ignore this unless he joins our discussion)

So because of all that discussion about wind I decided to play it until I fall all the way to the previous section (after a little bit of practice) And I did fall... after doing it 10 times in a row. The best part is that I fell during slow wind lol

Imo if its this consistent as an individual part, surely its not much to ask to beat it once in an actual run

(Also I get the feeling that people want to put it in Fun because of the deco, since solo already has a lot of maps with weird tune zones)

original design shouldnt mean it goes into fun category

nobody feels that way, i cant remember a solo with these sorts of tunes or gameplay that was recently released

and maps that replicate other games usually get submitted to fun

its not about consistency its about whether its fun or not

multiple people have singled it out as not fun

arguing about whether it is fun or not will not suddenly make it fun, only actually going into the editor and fixing the part will. this is how most mappers get their map released

Well can you tell me why its not fun? I get that its less fun than the rest of the map but I dont get why it is hated so much

i didn't have fun playing it

just felt frustrating, cutoffs were arbitrary, since teeworld has grid like mapping the wind will never feel realistic or normal

would you like the compromise of making the wind more gradual on top? Like add a row of force 1 max_speed 30 speedtiles

i'd have to see how it plays but i think it'd probably be better, or alternatively make it so you're not changing wind speeds mid-jumps

u cant test wind cus already practice it. for u this part is fine. if u really wanna test it correct find some one who don’t know map.

Im not testing it, Im saying that this part is not as random as everyone suggests it is

who said its random? for me its just no fun/unbalance

What unbalace? The whole map is difficult

its challenging, so not fun category imo

fun category is volleyball, tic tac toe

im tired of this, if mapper dont want to, so who am i to force him?

This is wrong, fun category isn't limited to maps like tic tac toe or volleyball, it's also the home of very unique ideas and challenging maps like MultiFAT and IWannaBeatThatMap for example, and these maps have way more common with kingsleap than any other solo map By saying fun maps can't be challenging you are part of the problem, you are limiting a category that barely has any limits

I think, in it's current state, the fun category is bs, as it stuffs things like tictactoe and IWannaBeatThatMap into one category

How is this not similar to iwannabeatthatmap ?

Ah nvm I read it wrong

But still, Iwannabeatthatmap is a rage map, just as this

It features a gameplay that doesn't suit ddrace, just as this

It has a unique mechanic that you don't see in any other map, just as this

It's a copy of a different game ported into ddnet, just as this

The discussion is pointless at that point. I wouldn't want to let this map go to waste, but I also don't see it fit into our main categories (any more).

You're trying to defend a map which we basically agreed on that it doesn't fit our main categories MONTHS ago. You could've just said "ok then we don't release it" back when I first told you it may not make it.

go put it into fun category then. Be aware that I am only against it because of mappoints and nothing else. I already opened an admin issue as this feels unfair for a full map I spend hundrets of hours on not to be played, because it doesn't lead to more virtual internet points. Also update your category guide to explicitly exclude rage maps then, as this map follows the solo-category-rules and you don't have explicit rules for gameplay standards

already opened an admin issue as this feels unfair for a full map I spend hundrets of hours on not to be played

• there are a bunch of fun maps that took an incredible time to map, so this isn't any special reasoning to say "oh ye it should go to solo cause he spent 100h+ on it"
• who told you that the fun category doesn't get played? if people like your map then it will get played, it's that simple

MultiFAT for example has over 500 finishes on the fun server, and volleyball has it's own community, with seasons and tournaments

i think you have a fundamentally wrong understanding of the fun category

• the testing process is a democratic process afaik and i dont think its fair to drag in the admins cause you dont like the result of it

FYI, I will shit on the desk of the CEO if there is something that is a major inconvenience for me

maybe you should take a shower and calm down a bit

the afaik hits hard on the democratic process

• but yes, that is also one of the reasons we dont have a testing lead (anymore) but democratic votes on maps - this one included.

if we had a rule for everything we partly or strictly follow - it would be a wall of text noone would bother to read.

how does it feel unfair? why do you expect the map not to be played?

you're suggesting we force points on this map so its played more, which makes little sense to me.

i dont care about points, i care about fun while playing

Also, fun category contains maps without start and/or finish lines, how is that the same?

the fun category barely has limits, some have start/finish and others don't have it

I also don't care about mappoints, I care about my map beeing played. And there are players who obviously care about them and hunt them. Also don't tell me that the fun category is played a lot. Go to status.tw and search for fun / solo, get some stats and see what's more played

i understand that you're frustrated - but you also need to understand that we can neither be biased towards a map submission, nor can we make an exception. favouritism is the thief of joy in a community.

forgot the backlash we got on the christmas event because the maps didnt meet our """"standards""""" ?

i expect the same here if we release it on solo.

people in general spamming, asking why this stuff isnt on fun/ another community. how it has nothing to do with ddrace or racing in general, how its just a gimmicky map etc.

I think you slightly miss my point, why don't get fun maps with a start and a finish mappoints? Even the DVD Screensaver deserves one

it's the opposite, this is a bias towards solo maps and against fun maps

i disagree, and i think we can agree that we both get the feeling of talking against a wall here, so i'll stop.

fun category or decline for me.

I already wrote "put it in fun category then" ?

Here explicit: Please put the map in the fun category, as nobody of us wants to discuss further about this

thx

Funny

no

Also, can you put this in "Waiting for Mapper"? I want to adjust the text from the cannon and want to experiment with the wind

Denying that maps without points get less plays is delusional imo If Linear II was released as a fun map for april fools it wouldnt get 10 finishers for like 3 years

Volleyball is so popular cuz its basically a new gamemode that is fun to play People dont play it for a completion

I think it is an april fools map isnt it? It got declined before and just got rls a day tooo early?

And will get moved in fun like texnoniks good movement map

And how does that change my argument?

Btw Im not dunking on Linear II, its just a good example for the mindset of players

na just wanted to clarify it xd And iam not sure if most players just play for points

I wouldnt go as far as to say "just for points" but it plays a huge role. For us who played for years its fun to just replay a map for no reason, but new players want to see some kind of progress in their skill. And noone is going to count the number of moderates/brutals they did in a browser cuz thats boring af. And like it or not the best progression system ddnet currently has is points, so you will often hear stuff like "how many points does this map give?" or "8 points for that?? hell no"

Ye ofc thats good point. Anyway we a bit offtopic^^

idk to me "Death" is also a rage map, so im sad that these two maps dont get treated the same. both require precision and you are punished harshly for making a mistake. Not even sure if theres a real finish on Death since these botters rename to good players (nishi was just lucky to get renamed on)

yeah move "Death" to Fun, wait a second 🤔

Denying that maps without points get less plays is delusional imo If Linear II was released as a fun map for april fools it wouldnt get 10 finishers for like 3 years

you making it seem as if fun maps get barely played or way less played than solo maps (you might see them less in the serverbrowser cause they are the smallest category), but when we look at the overall stats you can quickly see that most fun maps perform just like the solo maps (source: ddstats.tw)

When I check your profile you seem to miss 4 solo maps, 1 moderate and 5 fun maps (which are finishable) so yeah stats

Pls compare to fun solo maps like iwbtm not some time calculator

i actually did this aswell and the result wont satisfy you

i prefer ddrace maps over solo/race/fun

50/50

Then why you finished all race and most of solo

why tf do you care?

just because someone prefers a different category doesnt mean they arent allowed to play solos and races

saying i prefer something doesnt mean i dislike something else, but making this about me wont change anything, i could also come up with people that finished all or almost all fun maps and have way less on other categorys

Na na na you said you didnt finish all fun cuz you prefer other map than solo races and fun but you finished all races and all solo exept all the rly hardcore ones

Or you want to tell me that iwannabeatthemap is that hard

i dont think we should spam this map testing channel with this

Na na na you said you didnt finish all fun cuz you prefer other map than solo races and fun but you finished all races and all solo exept all the rly hardcore ones

like i said i prefer classic ddrace over solo/race/fun and usually i only play these gamemodes when i'm either really motivated to go for any special map or when something special happening (like all my friends play it, so i just join and give it a try) or and sometimes on release i give them a try (wasnt really active when iwannabeatthemap got released but i tried it afterwards and kind of lost the motivation for it since its not really my type of map, and forgot about it aswell over the years and yes its quiet hard (for me atleast))

Indeed, can we please not spam this channel anymore with stuff that’s barely related?

so there was also no friends on avoid and disabled but for example you have all the friends on races and solo

i could move to some other channel if someone wants to

yes, but i invite you to join my server and we can finish them, you could also help me on iwannabeatthemap cause i have no idea how the first part works (either i have no idea or its insanely hard)

Guys take it somewhere else please, this channel is getting enough messages already.

was created for these situations

lol this moved into fun category. Its so bad. Its defiantly not fun category. if u move this map into fun category so u need then move all non-standard maps into this category too.

So to be consistent, im waiting when u move all map like "slide" into fun category cus it have different gameplay.

So i see only 2 ways. 1 Move all non standard maps to fun. 2 Back this map to solo category cus it not really crazy map. WE NEED that cus we dont wanna chaos and wanna keep consistent

and also this hidden vote from testers are weird. we already had an unfair vote a few months ago ||I think it was a planet 9 map|| So why u didn't vote on current channel? what's problem?

Maybe because it's not annonymous? But whole point to vote is to hear ppl who dont agree, for fix problem. The more people, the better the solution.

You're trying to defend a map which we basically agreed on that it doesn't fit our main categories MONTHS ago. You could've just said "ok then we don't release it" back when I first told you it may not make it.

fit our main categories this is hidden changes? why we release #deleted-channel then? what difference on these maps? they bot have non-standard mechanic

I personally won't play if it's a hard map with no points

And it doesn't feel out of place compare to Iwanttobeatthemap

Just a gimmick where you can't move, same as live freeze

Quite sure mechanic itself isn't the only issue

Please move this discussion into https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/1325407774519332946 , this channel is now only about improving the map and fixing issues with it.

No access to channel

Still?

No, needed testing role

Yeah, I saw you had it now and wondered. ^^

I gave the map a full run without practice and here’s my take:

At first, the mechanics were definitely frustrating and even a bit annoying. It definitely takes some time to get used to. However, once I got the hang of it, I actually had a lot of fun with it.

That’s why I’m making the bold guess that the map gets so much hate because a lot of players just didn’t take the time to learn the mechanics. From what I’ve seen, the biggest complaints are about the sliding and the wind section.

About the sliding: once you get a feel for how it works, you can actually use the speed to your advantage and make longer, more precise jumps.

As for the wind part: imo it’s one of the best examples of what the map is trying to do. It really tests your skills especially with how it mixes different speeder types. That part alone captures the challenge aspect better than anything else in the map.

Like Jump King (which inspired this map) the goal is to be tough and sometimes frustrating. It’s all about precision and learning through trial and error. That said, the map does one thing better: you still have mid-air control, which gives you more freedom and room to recover.

Hopefully this review gets testers to rethink whether this map should really be placed in the fun category. Honestly if it ends up there, it’ll likely get ignored since most people won’t bother playing it without the chance to earn points. And that would be a waste.

There’s just one thing that bugs me: the placement of the "TURN OFF ENTITIES" sign as seen in the picture. It ends up covering your tee, making it hard to see exactly where you are.

Thank you for your Feedback, I agree on everything you said. The turn off entities just marks NPCs, I'll move them around

At the end of the day, all maps should have people who want to play it without getting fake internet points. If it needs points to make people play it, then why release it? This applys to lots of maps, but still.

People being excited about the map and playing it because they want too, should be the criteria for maps. I for one, would have played deep_blue for free, even without points.

Points are nice and there is no reason to remove them, but I think we should consider if maps are good enough to be playable without points, before we give them points.

How are your finishes any more real than the points they give xD

I also dont really like your idea with release without points first cuz it will create a disconnect between players at 2 releases, I think the 2 week bugfix period is already good enough (Answer in

if you want)

I send me answer, but anyways, I personally think this map would be playable without points, but only for some, people who don't like king's leap probably won't like this map ether, and people who do enjoy that kind of game play, will play it. Regardless if it gives points. I'd play it

Ok I decided to play the map legit this time and it took me 22 mins to beat xD Tbh I would make this spot not 1 block wide cuz its just annoying to fit in the hole (doesnt provide rage moments, just pure frustration)

You can do it in a setup and there are some tricks to make this part easier ^^ Most of the time I jump into the hole immediately 22 Minutes is already a good time, my PB on release was 13 Minutes, old WR (way older map version with some cuts) was 5 minutes When we played in the Event, the first finisher took over 2 hours, with a time of 44 Minutes

be on the middle of the edge where you are at on 0:0 (X ~ 20.0), hold left (still standstill), jump and hold left until you landed, you might even slide into the hole and use this hated mechanic for your benfits

yes it's a bit precise, but good players are able to pull this off!

Isnt my way literally faster tho? xD Lining up will take much longer and you even say its not 100% consistent unlike my way

But I guess my main point was that this spots "idea" for me is lining up and doing a still jump to get through, so something like removing these would keep this idea

Where did I say it's not 100% consistent? I said it's precise, no your way is not faster, I'll send you a clip when I'm home

trying to explain a setup from chat can be hard

Fair

(is the demo working for you? for me it's stuck 😦 )

Which demo?

I mean sure it might be faster (still looks debatable for me) But it was mainly about a casual run where you would have to do this part a lot

The upcoming week up to eastern I am on vacation, so I can't push any updates. I did not forget this, but I was busy

Speedups should not cause fps drops for anything but opengl 1.x, they share same logic as normal tile rendering which is quite fast

In this case it's the excessive use of animation points that causes fps problems

(and ddnet's bad implementation of it)

The map is already heavily optimized for FPS with clipping regions for quads. Also part of the snow on top is in details for this reason. I already mentioned this in the first post of this channel

^^^

They are laggy for the same reason as tele if you spam it: The text that gets rendered in entities causes the lag not the tile itself.

I am back, looking forward to update this week ^.^

With 19.2 a great FPS improvement comes, and this map is one which benefits the most of it

so I consider this issue solved now, also thanks to

❤️ 🍪