Nice map, just fix the background for god's sake

omg I love this map

BUT IT HAS BUGS

I will fix tomorrow ,

NICE MAP

Fixed all entity bugs

would you tell me the bug of the background ? it looks normal in my opinion 😅

does the bg move too fast?

Try to fixed the background things

and other display things

fixed bug 😅

Test later

i think that the last part maybe harder and longer than others

Map starts and one player have two parts , other one part what a big discriminating !

you can fall hook and use jump ( dj )

you can get him from here

dont need stopers

¿

delete hook through dont need

¿

i found 2 new parts in this map that mapper dont know xD but map is cool ♥ also i think would be more better if you put more parts ! ( just a few ) Why did used speed up only in this part ?

thanks a lot for testing ! i've fixed these skips.

bugs are fixed too

i wanna know which are the parts you found that mapper dont know in this map.😳

this map is a little bit short, but i think its ok for a ez moderate map. i will make more parts in 'Yun GU 2' if this map be released xD

i forgot the speed up when i made others parts so there is only one speed up in this map lol

Maybe 'Yun GU 31 can be release xd

this map is very cool

thank you !!

it's bamboo ?

yea , background is bamboo

Very Nice, maybe It's going to be the koala clan's favorite map!

are you koala clan xd, your profile is koala

you don't need to know , i already remaked them and maybe i will put it in my map .

😂

we're not Panda Clan

:D

xD

i'm an hybrid

you"re racist

.>

omg looks like it'll be a really good map

found a bug, idk if you already noticed it

Super fun map! creative parts and nice design

Only tp 22 feels a little awkward

Otherwise its great

agree

Fixed

thank you , i have fixed that now

The arrow shows the point witch I would consider a bit too tricky for Moderate.

Just finished the map. Great parts beautiful design. Moderate 4-5*

thank you for testing and advice😀

Moderate 1-3*

there is too hard parts for Moderate 1-3*

I would rather go like min 4 because even Babyaim and shit is Moderate 5 and way easie than this

no it not because moderate 4-5 star maps can be harder then insane 1 star map :/

only if its a texnonik map

normally mod 4-5 part is never harder than insane 1 part

lol how a moderate 4-5 can be harder than insane 1 ?

i would say brutal 1* but not insane lol

i mean brutal * 1 star

yeah

Having done all moderates I'd say 3-4*

Mappers choice imo

I haven't done all novice map, some of them are so annoying xd

when rls,

When every other will be

parts that are made to look good in design aren't smooth

would you explain more so i can improve it. is gameplay not smooth or graphic looks not smooth?

these "steps"

they look good but that's it

OK but I will keep it because I think it's good and doesnt affect the gameplay

I said it isn’t smooth to play

ok, sorry for my bad English. At first I must have misunderstood your meaning. Now I guess that's what you're talking about ->

maybe this is ok i think ->

these just what i guess. maybe that's not what you're talking about.

so now i will change these parts like the pic 1 to pic2. is it right?

am i misunderstand your words again? would you explain more with the pictures to show the unsmooth part?

this are steps

oh, thank you

https://youtu.be/R5Imjqe97s0?t=130 here the playthrough video, i dont think these 'steps' isnt smooth

this video was made several days ago so there are something different from the latest map. but most are same including the 'steps' part

ye i dont like them aswell

ofc they are smooth if you do everything perfect

but you also have to account for the other case

then all maps are not smooth if you don't do it good. also no one can be sure that he can do a map everything perfect at first try. its not a hard part, just after some practice then player can do it smoothly

nah, most maps allow for some error margin

if you don't like these 'steps' , then keep them as 'error margin'. i still dont think these are unsmooth

maybe this map is too ez for you guys

so you cant stand a bit unsmooth thing

what? xd

if it would be too easy I wouldn't have noticed it

well, you wont decline this map because of these steps , will you?😳

I think it would be smoother if you replace some steps with more primitive things

same thought, otherwise you could get stuck at every step, making it less smooth; but don’t make it a big deal, please xD

Oh and it is really hard to see the hookable design when it is on top of you

thanks your advice but i wont change these parts =.=

I admit that the unclear hookable, i will try to improve it

why do you not want to change it?

because its smooth if you do it in right way. this is the part what i do want. Not for good looking, its the gameplay

idea fit better into that map imo

everything is smooth if you do it how it's supposed to be done

that's not an argument

This could be an argument for insane/hard brutal

because these maps supposed to be unplayable xd

then why its not smooth ? because you do it with wrong way. if you do every part in wrong way, then every part is not smooth.

i said these steps are smooth , so why not keep it

read above

i don't think you are right, so why i need change it as you said.

i did it smooth and easyly

because others agree with me and you are the mapper

so you have a very subjective view on the map

I agree with jao, but actually it should be the mappers decision imo, seems like she really wants it that way

But wait, there are some other issues not related to smoothness. I gonna send some screenshots soon 😛

its my map, so just keep them as 'error margin'. I wont change it.

i will change the hookable color or something else to make it more clear

waiting for your screenshots 😂

little bit annoying to do it again and again for player at cp5. Can't go afk

this is ultra annying. Why do you put at the end of the part. I can't do it first try

this hook angle is ultra annoying too

this thing looks useless

I have no words to say how this part is annoying

love this part bcz of this weird skip

useless stoppers

idk why do you decide to use so much stoppers. There is literally at least one stopper in every part. Stoppers doesn't make your map better

you are ultra annoying

thank you , that skip part was fixed before, yours is not latest edition

but agree with first screen

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/559812717461110804/563721981602693153/unknown.png

this annoying hook because you skip the hookthrough in left

it should be harder if you want to skip something

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/559812717461110804/560348055488954379/screenshot_2019-03-27_14-20-30.png

this is the same crap as 1 tile hookable

I hate 1 tile hookthrough

I mean this

whats hard in this wtf

Very limited hook angle range

its not novice 1 map

This is worse than shitty edgehook

It's like 20 degree range wtf

wait i try this part now

You have pain doing it because you release the hook rly bad

idk, this supposed to be a moderate map

and this part is just fine for moderate

Despite that, you need to do a rly bad and hard hook

maybe, but you can't disagree this is annoying

I dont even want to finish this to get fucking points

bcz annoying

Moderate because doesn't need skills if you have at least some brain

Btw

I personnally like those steps, but I just think there may have too much of them

i dont feel this part is much more difficult than others. the only 'steps' which i feel not smooth is in the last part

i will change this first screenshot

and last useless stoppers

You should probably call for some moderate players to test your map with you. But you should not give them any advices. Maybe these parts are ez, but I don't know for sure

I guess they will stuck at these 1 tile hookthrough holes

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/559812717461110804/563721909712191507/unknown.png this part is just very normal

ok, i will test is with my friends

Nah lower at least the part of one tile

i may change this steps in the last part

(The last one you sent)

ok, then it will be very ez

i will change this

it's not the best idea to put this thing to the end of the part

Ofc it's a good idea

Actually that's the point of the part

"You're not finished yet, don't rest yourself"

it's wrong when the beginning of the part is easier than the end of the part

because you gonna fail the end and do the boring start again and again

Nah

i dont see smth wrong in it

its may harder but not much more hard, so its acceptable

yes

yes maybe this is just my novice skill

Ah I forgot to mention this

flow killer

Oh y kinda

Or at least needs unfreeze

this moment is worst 😛

i agree this, will change it

the last part is kinda long tbh

wanna do test run?

i just did

xd

omg

yea, i will try make last part easier

Gun yu

wuts that

tuts what

and this. Just the same move repeated 3 times. What's the point?

use normal tele here

put cp11 in a more appropriate place and rework cp 13-15 with normal tele

same for cp 17-19

ok, is it good to make bottom tele like this?

looks strange

ok

replaced the tele as jao said changed repeated part and last part hookable looks more clear other small changes

Stoppers look in design like they should be 1 tile longer

Can skip cp 18 and go back whole part

does go back whole part mean this ?

but why does player want go back

Removed stoppers' background

I mean it's possible to accidentally pull the tee under cp, then if you fail the part you have to redo 2 parts

It's possible here too, before the part you guys are talking about. making a new cp and replacing tele14 with telecp would help a lot with it.

also this part is pretty tight, i was expecting to be more spaceful

For a moderate map, this is fun to play, but i was quiet stuck on some parts that arent as the same difficulty as the other parts

its impossible. the tele after the cp18 is FROM 18, tee only can be teleport to TO 18

i was use the telecp here at first, but jao let me change to tele14.

yea there are some parts are more difficult than others. but the difference is in acceptable range i think.

changed the narrow part

added team play limit

more space

team play limit?

oh, its sv_team 2

why?

emmm, its too ez if there is a pro player carry others i think, and this map is not faily

how do yo u think

maps should only be team-forced if the map requires it

that maps are easier in team 0 is ok

especially for easy maps

oh,

there is nothing competitive about your map

ok, i remove that

when rls xd

removed team .....

i think its a 2 player map no?

no its dummy map

...

jao said team 0 better

fixed some cheats

k 😀

I'm pretty sure the version I played had a checkpoint there, maybe it was old

yes, jao told him to rework part with normal teles ^^

Normal teles suck :/

:x

jao prefers them i guess

when cp isn't necessary

randomly found that, check the whole midground again, please

Btw background parallax is still a bit weird

Also hookable ends don't quite match entities

fixed midground bug & reworked hookable ends

fixed background bug

you can just go into this tele to get back

maybe tune this speeder a bit down

this part can be much better, i can explain u ingame when u free

there no fail spots in whole map, making end faily is bad idea

are you in server now?

O h

I read the wrong time

fixed

speeder 128->72

added tele last part

remove some tele in laser part

Many of your cheat fixes make the parts not work as well as they used to, and shouldn't there be forced teams? Also the background is still moving a bit weirdly, do you need help fixing it?

Also there's still a lot of mini-cheats but if you worry about all of them the map will end up weird.

You could place tele-to 28 together with tele-to 29 and add some little throw or something to make the end a bit more interesting (just a suggestion)

(You can swing to the other side of the freeze solo anyway)

THANK YOU

i will be very happy if you could help me to fix the bg problem. jao said that there shouldnt be team-forced .

mini cheats is ok

i will try to change the end part

end part changed

-First half of tele 22 part is full of cheats and doesn't flow well, I think you should just rework it

-Move tele 8 up 1 tile so you don't hit it if you jump

-To fix the background, always use the same ratio of X parallax to Y parallax, for example Y value is always half of X value on all layers. That should avoid layers moving weirdly in relation to each other.

Also I still think it's obviously a 2p map so it should have teamforce, I can't imagine playing it in t0. But if jao wants to be stubborn, then let people suffer and cheat in t0

THANK U

!

Fixed bg , moved tele 8, reworked tele 22 with jao and kicker's idea

should i add teamforce as Ravie said ?

stopper please, since in the part is normal tele if you fell in you would fail

at the end of the map "Bamboo" is misspelled

other than that looks close to ready, but let's wait for

to respond about team force

Fixed misspell & added stopper

I don't see why playing in teams bigger than 2 would be problematic, there are afk spots everywhere

and especially easy maps (below brutal) shouldn't be teamforced anyways

also, please change the start, it already annoyed me in imposand

syltoox is a botter

at least use your brain if you comment on stuff

🆗

🆗

stop posting useless comments please

stop

In a map with only drag parts people will block each other by doing the part or fight for the first hook. They can also heavily cheat the map even with just 3 tees.

I've seen t0 teams trying to do drag parts and it never looked good, either many people have to wait or it's all chaos

maps like baby aim should be teamforced too then

this is more comparable to barren

barren has the cheat component

all drag parts do

this is a moderate map, you can't worry about team 0 cheats

it's barely a moderate map

there is no competitive aspect to it

blocking and cheating is always blocking and cheating

and it exist in every map

but it's not a strong problem

part of the game

and people have been dealing well with it since forever

if a map is obviously made to be played as 2 then teamforce should be allowed

what matters more is that people can have fun with friends or without friends (in team 0)

fun is the golden rule

you think about this too much from a mapper perspective

still, drag parts are really susceptible to cheating in team 0 and this map has pretty much only those

so in team 0 this map might as well be novice 5

there is no point in cheating moderate maps

it's neglectable

it's moderate 5 imo, 1 or 2 parts are even brutal 1

moderate 5 is still moderate

rating doesn't really matter, every map is different

omg it’s so lively here.

yea rating doesn't matter

the parts are easy

that's what matters

cheating single parts is something you have to worry about in maps that are actually hard

cheating every part in the map*

every part but only the parts themselves

not skipping whole parts of the map

actually it kinda is

I don't know why this is a big deal now, every map is like that

most maps aren't just drags

it never influenced competitive ranks and it can actually be fun

almost entire ddmax server is like that

lol

let's use ddmax as a benchmark for mapping 🤔

you said it yourself, only drag parts

that's typical ddmax style

ddmax drags aren't the same, when you have a drag part with some moves you're supposed to do but you can put another person on the other side to catch him it kinda kills the point completely

yea but it doesn't matter for competitive ranks, those are 2p anyways

hi jao, what is your advices about changing the start part 0.0

more ways to go to the other side or solo part

or change it entirely

most people don't play competitively and I still don't think they should be allowed to cheat like this

why shouldn't they if it doesn't influence competitive ranks

you have to realize that playing can be for fun too

ok, i will try to make some changes

so playing the map how it is intended is not fun?

for some it is, for others it's playing with friends and teamworking

both is perfectly fine

everyone can play how they want

but you don't need to "teamwork" drag parts

you don't need to, but you can 😛

drag parts in their core are supposed to be played as 2 people (1 in freeze) unless someone made one specifically to require 3 or more people

that's your opinion as a mapper

just understand that it's about fun and being able to play with more friends means more fun

as long as it doesn't influence competitive ranks, a little cheating is ok

I think the mapper should decide if he wants to allow such cheating

the mapper should take a compromise and put their ego back

it's not about ego, the mapper should decide how he wants his map to be played if there's a feature like team force

features are there to be used, not to be abused

so using team force in a map that is obviously meant to be played as 2 is "abusing"?

do me a favor and read my arguments for why team forcing such a map is not a great idea considering everything

I think I argued the mapper aspect aswell last year

Heinrich and deen weighed in and I guess I was just out voted on that teamforce rule

The official reason is "fun is most important"

it’s pretty easy, most important argument is fun, and removing fun solely to satisfy the mappers ego is pretty dumb

Imho it makes the map ratings pretty mich useless

I agree, some brutal maps in team 0 might as well be novice

point system is fucked anyways so don’t even argue with that xd

Yeah the points are pretty bad to begin with

it’s about fun and that’s all that matters

that shouldn't prevent us from leaving the old maps how they are but improving future releases

you’re not improving anything with team forcing this

Well if you agree that fun is most important then the rule makes sense

Exactly, the teamforce doesnt make it any more fun and it certainly makes it less fun for t0 people

but "fun" is not always how the map is intended to be played

??

then what’s the point of the map

I agree, not every map has to be fun

Some are just challanging

a challenge is fun

Like that stupid gores map we have with 1 tile gaps everywhere

not all maps have to be fun to everybody, everyone can play what he likes

my god

Thats exactly what i said last year, the argument is that teamforcing only makes it less fun

I think it should be respected what the map creator's vision is and let the map be played that way

read what I said please

the mapper should respect others too instead of being a fucking ego

it’s an easy compromise

It's not ego

it's a vision

if you had a physical puzzle toy would it really be solved if you broke it with a hammer instead of the intended solution?

it’s ego nothing else

Calling that ego is like calling the people who built ikea ego for forcing you to browse furniture when you just want to buy lighting supplies

Shouldnt brutal maps be t0 too? Would be "fucking ego" if it is 2p forced

Its just how it is designed, they want you to experience the store in a certain way

mystery read back chat

What exactly?

everything

I did

as far as u solve the puzzle it's ok

then you know the answer to your question

but is cheating really a solution?

Yes

Cheating is a big word

It's more teamworking

it’s not relevant cheating

someone who designed the puzzle wants you to do it in a certain way

it doesn’t influence competitive ranks

By definition as long as you get to the result required its a solution

it only matters for the mappers ego

the guy who designed the puzzle should be happy that ppl who can't solve puzzle by theirself find solutions to solve it

In my opinion maps are fun if u play them like they are intended. Not by doing drag parts with more people. Maps should challenge urself and if u cheat it, it is not a challenge

If the mapper thinks it should be 2p forced, it can be or not?

thats just your opinion, most of the t0 people would disagree with you on that

But why should almost all Moderate maps be t0 based?

There are like 300 ?

if u like challenge u can play it in team

we aren't forcing u to go team0

Exactly you can play in team if you want

t0 people get maps made to be played that way without any cheating or blocking

If there are a few 2p forced Moderate maps, then the t0 guys dont have to play it?

why do you want force other people to play in a certain way if it doesn’t influence you

that’s just ego

yeah exactly

The mapper wants the players to play the parts like they are intended

How is it ego

my god

This absolutely is ego yeah

you seem really stuck with this ego thing

I answered everything you are going in circles

It's not ego to have a certain vision in mind

because that’s why they want it forced

it's not ego, if he designed the parts to be played as 2 then they are obviously not designed to be played as 7

We arent generating maps with an AI here, the mappers have creativity

the mappers are egos and aren’t willing to take compromises

reality

Flux isn't teamforced no ?

no

Well I gave up on this point last year aswell, and I'll give up now, I have sth to do

Like idk

forbiding teamforce is not a compromise

If some players aren't good enough to finish ur map in team of 2p, wouldn't u be happy that they finish it with 4/6p team0 ?

Like they just had fun playing the map in a chill way, teamworking and all

and it doesn't affect competitive aspect at all

But I refuse to believe that there are mappers just sitting home wanking to the thoughts of releasing a teamforced map

Lets play Heartcore in 4 player

no, because that's not how the map is intended

ratings are fucked anyways

Heartcore is the worst example

I think they just want their maps to be played a certain way, and I dont think that makes them "ego"

it's basically a map that needs teamforced

you don’t realize how evil people are

U can only do the drag parts in teamwork

and that's why it is

"why don't you just put an easy way for people too bad to finish the actual way"

why

because it's an insane map

xD

+

best argument

Anyways, the teamforce doesnt change anything

it would affect competitive aspect

Because this map is easier it shouldnt be teamforced

?

as speedrunners don't first try every parts

Exactly

imo

If anyone wants to play the map in t0 they can and if they want the challange they can play in team

there is no point to teamforce moderates maps

u just got it

insane maps are competitive by default, ofc this is an argument

Why is Run Free forced?

how many finishes the map has

506

tees

and 666 finishes

run free is teamforced because mapper called enough friends to pressure me

xDDDD

yeah tbh

that's weird

and releasing it was a mistake either way

i thought it would have less

BEST ARGUMENT 2019

it was an hard map

but basically

i think 4p team on this map could be ruining the competitive aspect

i guess it could be possible to cheat many parts

This one is cheatable too

with 4p

it doesn't ruin competitive aspect

with run free i'm not talking about cheating drag parts

in most maps team 0 doesn't make all parts instantly easy

stop talking about run free

that map was a pure mistake

just do like KoG and remove mistakes?

too late

why mistake? it's a decent map and teamforce is perfectly fine

its a mistake because its 2p forced jao or what?

no

why then

doesn’t matter this channel isn’t about run free

true

it's just a mistake cause it's an example of a map with teamforce

But we discuss about 2p force and Ravie is an experienced mapper who can think objective. It looks to me like u dont care if people think 2p force is better to this map

The map is mapped like this obviously, else we wouldnt talk about that

it didn’t came with teamforce, I don’t know why it’s such a big deal now

and this discussion is going in circles

it did have teamforce at first

fun is most important and that’s what we are going with

allowing people to bot maps is also more fun

for the people who like botting

instead of playing legit

xD

It's about fun soooo I think yes 🤔😂

Talk about a strawman argument lol

it's a valid argument nonetheless, does it not follow jao's rules?

?

if all we care about is fun

By breaking another rule...

I said multiple times fun is fine AS LONG AS IT DOESNT INFLUENCE COMPETITIVENESS

you just ignore that it seems

botting obviously influences that

well you could exclude botted ranks from legit ones for rankings 🤔

stop

LOL

XD

I literally heard that "stop" in jao's voice

Ye xD

this is a fucking moderate map, if you want to make maps that are meant as a challenge, make something that actually is

a challenge doesn't have to be challenging to everybody

easier maps are challenging to worse players, that's all

my god

look at it objectively please

I am

objectively = also include the mapper's vision

then don’t argue against it with extreme scenarios

Please stop arguing about this until you can answer "Who does teamforce make happy except the mapper?"

who does prohibiting botting make happy except other players?

????

other players...

This one is easy, everyone else on the leaderboard is a much bigger number then the couple dozen botters

Its statistically good to keep the leaderboards botter free as it makes more people happy then it makes people upset

anyway, the map's creator's opinion is a pretty important one, is it not?

He is the mapper not the players, the mapper caters to the players

and the people’s opinion is too

it’s not too much to expect mappers to take compromises

Besides there are objectively more people then mappers who care about teamforce

then why is it a problem to allow the minority of mappers to decide about their map?

Because we need maps and maps require creativity

Thus we need humans who map

those humans have a vision too though, they don't map just to cater to the o'great players

why is it a problem for mappers to take compromises if it’s not about ego

surely they do, do you map for yourself?

If you map for yourself you can host it and play it yourself

in some way, yes. if I had no enjoyment in mapping then why would I do it

When we release a map on ddnet its for the players

for players and mappers

both

hence compromise

it's not like the mapper's vision excludes fun, you just want the map to be played a certain way

Why do you care if its played some other way?

because if there's an easier way, people will use it and so less or no people will do the intended way

people who wants a good rank

will do the intended way

as it's usually faster

"no people"

that’s just not realistic

ofc people will still play it in 2p teams

the majority even probably

"you can choose if you want the challenge or not"

useless extreme example

you’re going in circles

I'm not going in circles since I never moved anywhere

Your arguments are going in a circle

how about just setting a 'max_team_size 2', so that people who want get team rank challenge can do it in team and others who wants get points eazily can do it in team_0

competitive ranks are 2p anyways

there is no way a 4p will be faster

you need to move more tees

if you put a tee in each drag and one just ran along it would be faster

you would skip 50% of the map

that can’t be done in a team

all need to start together

I wonder why

is so invested in this

because it's not the first time jao's team force "rule" is interrupting a mapper's idea

yea there are more ego mappers sadly

Is it really interrupting his idea?

... it's not about ego

Is the map bsf without the teamforce?

Bad*

then take the compromise if it’s not about ego

well then why don't you? 🤔

what you want isnt a compromise

you didn’t offer a compromise

neither is what jao wants

The teamforce rule is a compromise between what the players want and what the mapper wants

Mapper wants his map to be played a certain way, players want to just have fun

well if what the mapper wants is for his map to not be played in t0 then it's not much of a compromise huh?

and that is literally what team force does

Its still a compromise between what the mapper wanted and what the players wanted

then it's simply not what the mapper wanted

people can play how the mapper wants it and they can play how they want it

that’s literally a compromise

both get satisfied

in some way

To be honest idk how many mappers think like this, or actually care about this

if the mapper wants people to only play the map the intended way then it is still no compromise

But if I was more involved in testing my position would be "They are free to release their maps somewhere else"

If it's so important to them

if mappers only want their way its ofc no compromise

what are they compromising there?

it's also no compromise if you can play the map any way you want

there simply is no possible compromise

i am not clear if it should be a teamforce at the beginning, and now i am 😵

so in this case I stand on the mappers' side

but people will still play how the mapper wants it

just not all

you’re making it look like absolutely everyone will not play as the mapper wants it

also mappers aren't just catering to players, so why do players have to complain? if someone offered you a meal you wouldn't complain it's not salty enough or whatever and just take it or not (unless you're really badly mannered)

hello it’s a simple compromise, we don’t ask you to cut off your leg or something

you make it a way bigger deal than it is

in this particular map it is not a big deal, but you took it as a universal discussion so now I do as well

if it’s a big deal in a map then it’s fine to team force it?

I never said team force in general should be removed

maps like this you can pretty heavily cheat in team 0 so I do think it's needed, but it's not game breaking

and you would only allow team force in extreme cases

you can cheat any map like your can cheat this one in theory

well, no

you can only cheat certain parts

in this map you can cheat them all

every baby aim or whatever

This won't even be a competitive map

it's not about competitiveness

imagine team forcing something like baby aim

competitive players have their own rules anyway

team forced baby aim would be no problem at all

in fact I think I've only ever played it in team

I think i only ever played it in t0

it would have 80% less popularity if it was team forced

believe me

I wouldn't be so sure, I see barren played very often

This is such a pointless ass debate

and it's a similar format

Look I tried to argue this before a couple times, it just never leads anywhere when you acknowledge that not having teamforce hurts nothing but the mappers ego

so the mapper's "ego" doesn't matter at all?

It literally makes no one happy except the mapper

It matters some, it's just not the most important thing

it really depends on the map

mappers ego belongs on their lan server

some maps should absolutely be played the right way

We arent here to please mappers egos

yes but then it’s not about ego ravie

We are all here to give whatever remains of the teeworlds community an enjoyable game

mappers aren't here just to please the players even if it means playing the map wrong

See you go back to that...

This argument will never get anywhere if you are going to keep doing this

because it's still true?

you sound like we HAVE to do what mappers want

no, you should just be less strict with teamforce

you should be less strict with your ego

why is it not allowed except maps that absolutely require it, big compromise

I answered that 10 times now

many maps don't absolutely require teamforce but should still have it

I dont know any game that aims to please the content creators

You aim to give the content creators nice tools to work with

most game creators fix bugs and exploits and other similar stuff

is it to please their ego?

And you aim to please the players who play

you want people to play stuff a certain way, not give them a map or a game and say do whatever you want with it

you make it such a big deal...

We aim to keep a consistent gameworld as the developers

Inside the gameworld the mapper is free to do whatever he wants as far as the mod ddnet is concerned

But as ddnet the network of servers, we maintain rules about what you can and cant do inside the gameworld

To maintain a consistent quality of releases

some of the most creative and fun maps take that "gameworld" and completely break it to create something interesting never seen before

It's not rocket science

ravie we are thankful for every mapper and every map, but we still can expect them to make small sacrifices for the greater good

we aren’t evil

I disagree

The most popular maps don't break anything inside the gameworld at all

I'm not talking about popularity

I'm talking about creativity and innovativity

Well the popular maps are definitely fun

depends

Well I doubt any creative maps really "break" anything

they are fun if you play a few of them, but some people like to see something new every time

As far as the mod is concerned, if you were breaking something we'd fix it

E.g. the teetower glitch from 0.5.2

idk, I didn't play in those days

Maps that used it really broke the gameworld

But there were many

but team force is not a glitch

neither is use of tunes etc to create something that doesn't resemble teeworlds at all

Again, as far as the mod is concerned teamforce is fine

really why is it such a big deal to let people decide how they want their map to be played

As far as network is concerned, we just dont want to release maps that use the feature, to make sure the largest amount of players enjoy the map

even if it means playing the map wrong?

the idea of giving people something to have fun no matter how they use it is like catering to babies

Its fairly simple to understand, we decided its more important that the players have fun then to have maps that are competitive, especially at the novice/moderate level

not being able to have fun with multiple friends due to a mappers ego is a pretty big deal

As you can see at brutal and insane we are way more lenient

not being able to ride my bike on the freeway is so ego of the government

As the leaderboard is much more competitive there

Most players are higher than Moderate level. and also there are many other Moderate maps for them

not being able to bike on the highway is a health and safety issue, both for you and the drivers

So the government takes away your fun for the good of everyone

doesnt change much for moderate plaers if this is 2p force or no. they can see it as a challenge then at least

the mapper wants his map's fun to be experienced a certain way, just how an author writes stories

and in some maps team0 contradicts that type of fun

So if you want to have fun some other way fuck you?

Whats the point in saying fuck you to the players?

it's not saying fuck you to the players

the map is still fun

It is to the players who want to play in t0

If its not fuck you, its atleast fuck off

if the map is not supposed to be played in team 0 then so be it

This is the point where i say "the people who want to play it in team 0 can play in team 0, and the people who want to play in team can play in team" and then you say"but what if the mapper doesnt want them to play in team 0" then i'll say "the mappers opinion matters less to me in this area then the players opinion" then you'll say "what about the mappers vision" then jao will say sth about ego

xd

its map of the mapper

not of testing team

lol

testers just make the map releasable

This entire argument is quite pointless in the grand scheme of things, at the end the mappers who care about teamforce is a handful and the players who would actually be sad that they cant play in t0 are a couple dozen. We decided in this specific case to side with the player

i have never ever seen anyone complaining bout that

nobody complained about Run Free that it is teamforced

Side with the mapper and their ego isnt hurt, side with fhe player and people have more fun

the map would have many more teamranks of 2p as t0 finishes or bigger than 2p teamranks

have fun at the cost of playing the map wrong

Disclaimer: I don't really care either way, it's literally a tie IMHO

Tiebreakers always make some peolle unhappy

I'm also not saying all maps should be teamforce, only that some maps would benefit from it and only a few players would be dissatisfied they can't play it

I can say the same thing, and then youll say something about the mappers vision

it’s a bigger deal for players than for mappers

It's literally fun vs vision

because believe it or not, my views still haven't changed

it’s unrealistic that a majority will cheat this map

there is no point in actively wanting to cheat this

you made this a universal discussion

it’s case by case

every map is different

I won’t go ahead and make a universal decision for maps I didn’t see yet

You gave me a headache btw

yea pointless discussion

everything was said in the first few sentences

Both sides of the discussion have nearly the same weight, it's unlikely to resolve one way or the other without some major revelation

and since jao is higher ranked than me his side wins

🌈

So the current compromise is as good as it gets

we should weigh in ravies botting comparisons

🙃

at some point decisions need to be made, there will always be people that disagree

We cant just sit here and argue for weeks about this

That's the only reason there are ranks to begin with, decisions need to be taken in a certain timeframe

still there's no problem with maps that are absolutely playable in t0 and maps that totally need teamforce so this is just about those gray area cases

let’s just say that fun should be the top priority as long as competitiveness isn’t influenced by it

and call it a day

yeah let's say it for the 7th time

great

just like you said mappers vision for 4 times

till the next time a teamforce map pops up