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https://ddnet.tw/testmaps/?map=Just_Pseudo_Fly

so it begins

Poggers

YOOOOOOOOO

$ready gO

$TRUE

time to finish it without a single pseudofly

Some parts you can fly normally xD

I don't think its gonna be a fun challenge XD

https://youtube.com/watch?v=5Kk4nnPtSe4&feature=share

Poor véna

People need a tutorial before that level of flying XD

Yeah that is probably a 5 * insane map. And involves extra weapons.

Soapy added the restless pseudo aswell so the map should be easier. No lag tho because he used live freeze to prevent Copy Fly.

oh god

wait, brutal? and dummy dies? this is sort of odd to me

if dummy dies just make it like a 5* dummy it pretty much lands in the middle of the brutal category as far as points go

and also prevents 2 actual players doing the map and just having to sacrafice one (but depending on how hard the map is, its unlikely anway)

No way! I just started making same map a week ago

you cannot really compete with soapy anyway

Where does dummy die?

Dummy dies in venas map not ours.

Unlucky xD I started this close to the start of the year 😛

5 dummy is not the middle of brutal category. Its the the same difficulty of brutal. 5 dummy = 5* Brutal.

We also do want actual people to try and pseudo with other real players. And its possible.

oh lol i didnt even realize that wasnt the map LOL

Plant should post a demo soon

ah nvm not

it's just dummy map again

xd

Is not a dummy map xD But easier i guess xD

no1 will finish this with real player it's just the truth

uhm i have a friend In SA who can pseudo with other people?

In time people can and will learn it?

I mean it's possible with real player obviously but 100% easier with dummy u should of made the challenge only for 2p

since whole top5team will be only with dummy

Eh. it is what it is.

Or someone needs to set bounty for 2p finish with prize so ppl would play it as 2p

I am not opposed to that idea 🙂

Should be said for all maps that can be done as 2p then.

I was hoping for 2p pseudo map other than dummy map since Just Every Fly was a dummy map already but it is what it is

Just every fly is not pseudo fly. This is supposed to be a place to really practice pseudo fly.

Can be kind of hard to create 2 p parts while just trying to keep fly parts.

I think their target audience is not just speedrunners ^^

Yes. its meant to be a general place to come and learn it, which is why we did the tutorial and explained in detail with animations.

Also, if people just wanna get better at it. How do they do that on Just every fly? Its not exactly the same. That lag that comes from removing hammer is horrible.

nobody will play this 2p

lol

^

no one cares about either of your opinion

lol

^

just every fly

No ones disputing its easier with dummy. What are you guys trying to accomplish? Maps made that are never allowed to be done with dummy?

Accept it. Some things are easier with a dummy so no need to change it.

If you guys are salty you cant get a top time on fly maps with real players then too bad. Game doesnt have to change to accommodate your every need 🙂

Or you know, make your own map with your own 2p parts. SOLVED.

If it's not made for speedrunning then deen should make it 0 teamrank points, then we wouldn't care anymore so basically make it as Tutorial map since u said it's not made for speedrunning

pseudo discover by dummy player for dummy player

skill issue XD

Or you should stop giving bad ideas and stick to playing the game. Using dummy is part of the game. There are more and more people who enjoy playing with dummy every day. Not just 2p speed runners.

Why must we accommodate your wishes spooky + brokecdx + rockus?

"Lets punish people who enjoy and get good at this mechanic"

their issue is that it should be a dummy map not a brutak

they never discouraged people from getting better at the mechanic

they just don't want this map to be added to the 2p ranking leaderboard (aka teamrank points) when it's realistically never gonna be played 2p

if u make this a dummy map, people can still train their skills on the mechanic. it's possible to play with a friend as 'dummy' on dummy maps. only 1 of them will get the finish but does it matter if the purpose was to train the mechanic? to be fair we all know that on this map 2 real players will never stand a chance on top 10 vs. 1p+dummy, so it doesn't matter if they can't get their full teamrank as 2 players while the other way around kinda skews the teamrank leaderboard (exactly the same way just fly currently does)

that's just my 2 cents tho it's up to testing staff to decide

I am okay with making it a dummy map. I just dont think we need to go changing rules and taking ranks if it were a brutal.

Because yes currently, only a handful of people can pseudo with other players. But i expect it to rise in the future.

I never once thought top 10 would be anything but dummies. Just the problem would be that you can still do restless pseudo really easily with a normal player. And i guess no one really wants to go play an hour map just to kill themself at the end, if they were learning. Or even playing it because they cant pseudo. But then again, 90% of the time it will be done with dummy. We just wanted to accommodate the people who do try with 2P.

So yeah I dont mind to be honest. People can go learn for a few hours, and just die all in the name of learning right. Or maybe they can do two runs. 1 finish for each of them.

I just played the map with dummy, ngl there's some creative parts and such it's pretty fun to do but what snail said pretty much i wanted to say the same maybe i approached the thing wrongly mb ^^

Actually yea I guess it is 5* brutal. I thought it was lower for some reason

Also I'm all for other people psuedo-ing, i was just going off of what Lynn said and was saying that if one of them dies at end then you should just make it a dummy map.

Yeah you worded it a bit wrong i guess. Honestly, i agree with you guys.

But youre talking about a mechanic that needs good synced hook and hammer timings. Which yes is obviously easier with a dummy.

But soapy went and made restless pseudo. So now if i go and take all my SA friends and tell them to pilot i will hammer, or vise versa. We can atleast finish the map. And have fun. At the slight cost of you not getting a top 10 time because you refuse to do it with a dummy.

So yeah, theres like less than 20 fly maps in the game. I dont think its really hurting spookys teamranks overall that he cant / wont get a rank 1 here if its brutal.

Ah yeah i see well i guess its up for debate now .

Dummy dies?

She was talking about the video, cause she thought the video was of this map when it was vena's map

XD lol

Time to move all fly maps to dummy server XD

While we are at it lets fix copy fly and just rocket fly maps too XD

Maybe Dummys should be registered so its illegal for them to get ranks.

AYOOOO NEW DRAMA !!!!!!

https://youtu.be/RER01q38ER0

i'll let you watch this masterpiece that i edited in 30seconds

also i finished with iParano and Cireme already so if you cant finish 2p it's simply a skill issue

When someone makes the perfect map for u to show-off lmao

i waited too long

also the video it's just to show testers that parts are doable

i didn't even use copydummy to prevent rockus from crying

"ehhhh you used copydummy last part"

Personally, i would decline this map cause the gameplay seems low effort to me (except maybe some bits towards the end) but if u pseudo players like it that much im fine with it

Cant expect much from a "just ... fly" map i guess xd

They just arent my preference

i mean you can’t really enjoy the gameplay if you don't really pseudoflying , and can’t really let pll learn it if you decline those kind of maps

Yeah its silly to think people wont play with real players. And not everyone cares about top 10 🙂

Pro run

Understandable, we did our best to ensure the map was fun with help from players far better than us at pseudo flying. Didn't want to go too far away from normal pseudo flying in the beginning but we tried to keep each part unique in some way.

oi mate you got a license for that dummy?

It's time for a new identity boys

As I have come to notice. More gameplay can often lead to less finishes. Especially when introducing new mechanics.

Take the dummy server for example. Sometimes using extra "gameplay" can take away from the fun of the map, especially when introducing unfamiliar gameplay. Which can lead to maps with very low finishes.

But yes as soapy said we did try have each part use a different idea. Might not look like it to people who dont actually play fly maps.

this is just dumb, maps like these ruin teeworlds

please elaborate

its a release, f3

its not like ure required to play it

ik it feels shit that you have to learn a different technique,but its like when aled came out, a new map with a completely different technique wich you either learn and finish the map or dont

I find it better to just complain rather than learning anything new

Who doesnt

"How dare you give us more maps and more techniques to learn. How dare you."

This game once was about teamwork and the maps were supposed to be fun. Nowadays these factors seem to not be taken care of anymore. This map is not only doable with dummy but it is even easier to perfom with a dummy which makes it so lame. 5 players might find their fun in running a map with a literal bot while all the others are waiting for maps that are actually good and fun which simply are not getting released anymore (idk whether it is the mappers or testers fault since I am not that active). However, to stay on-topic: This map encourages playing with a dummy rather than with an actual player as it simply gives you a huge advantage and is against some of the main goals that ddnet was initially standing for.

Please stop with the quotes or pings as I did not intend to lead on a debate here at all

Cool story bro. Didnt finish reading, too busy playing with my dummy.

Also please delete the dummy server, it brings out the worst in you people.

Shitting on a map and saying it's ruining the game is gonna lead to a debate regardless of if you are apart of it or not

I guess having 2000 non dummyable maps vs 20 "dummy" brutal maps is a massive problem. Teeworlds is over guys.

The map is very much doable with 2p, atleast going off of what the mappers said, and I mean it's not really like pseudo is physically impossible w/o dummy.

So if you aren't really one to play with dummy, grab a friend or something and run it with them. Things change, for better or for worse

Lmao

Its not changing, Its just more options?

The old maps are still there, new 2 man maps are made every week and day.

Yea even changing is a bit of a stretch. Dummy seems to have gotten a much larger presence in the later years tho

Yo bro whats up with mocking people because they state their opinion in map testing

If you cant take criticism of any kind, dont post your map

It's not criticism really

Of course it is

Because its like saying "dont put extra game modes in league of legends. it started as a 5 v5 game, other people cant go to a different server and play TEAM FIGHT TACTICS??? what??. oh no theyre playing gun game on counter strike??? this is just ludicrous. "

no, different ways of playing games spawn. People enjoy them. Life goes on.

With the difference that these are clearly seperated from the other mods

I mean I can see where you're coming from, but honestly it's not a lot of maps that even have any issue with dummy at all.

This is like the difference between kog and ddnet

Not really

Imo

Feel free to elaborate

Who would go to a different server just to play with dummy or do fly maps? Lots of maps are perfectly doable with 2p. Most dummy controversy I see is related to speedrunning

And that's on like only fly maps

Yes it was related to speedrunning as it was benefiting the players that play with dummy - just what this map is all about and this is simply not right

It's one map though, literally like 95% of maps are better with 2p

If the argument is that spooky and them want a 2 man pseudo map because of speed running. Then the counter argument is that its much harder to pseudo with normal people so why cant they translate that skill to the dummy? They would rather have the map doable for 5 people if its made for 2 people. The mechanic is in the game to stay. So

But yes, likely this map is going to have dummy player ranks. But it won't really do much over all.

Unless it's like only fly maps getting released in recent time it doesn't really have an effect.

ALSO, restless pseudo guys. Is easy, and fun to take a friend with. you know the ones who dont care about ranks?

I dont get your point

Idk, maybe I'm missing something but I personally don't see the dummy argument much at all. Except for a per map basis but in general dummy does not have much of a presence

you know i love you bro but i have to agree with freezestyler doesnt make sense to rls this map we dont rly need this type of map cuz if you want you can pseudo fly in every map just fly etc dont need a "tutorial map" if someone wants to learn it then they will

Spooky asked me to make a pseudo map. Initially he said nothing about doing it with a dummy. this was before rockus moaned and groaned.

So now i posted and the problem is that its easier with a dummy. But if it's easier with a dummy then why can't people learn it that way?

Ontop of that. Restless pseudo gives you infinite hook and uses no collision with 1 player on live freeze. so you can either hold hook and just practice the hammer timings, or you can try practice the pseudo hooks with your partner. Overall, its much easier because you dont have to pseudo hook.

But we made the map so people can learn pseudo regardless of if its easier with people or not. Soapy cant pseudo fly for real so he made restless pseudo.

Ok and people didnt need your dummy map that is just 1 part repeated 50 times. But its there. They can do that one trick in any other map.

if you think like this or there a new player they need to learn this then we also need a map for kinta fly

why are you so mad holy xd

yoo whats that disrespect

Because its getting pointless now

Get your mood right

wtf?

its not getting pointless xd

I was banned for exactly this behaviour so you better chill out

Lol

you just dont take crit

Little agressive

Okay sorry. xD It's hardly hardly any good points you guys have made for why it shouldnt be in the game

explain why it should then

Read up

50 times i said

Idk about all this rockus stuff but seems like he is against this map somehow as well?

then go map kinta fly map 😄

Plus restless pseudo fly

Dummy in general

On fly maps

we need a tutorial map for kinta fly also then ^^

xD

Yes true

i'll get on that one soon

Can it be done with dummy or not?

So we are at least 2 ppl thinking that which makes it more significant I guess

The way dummy is currently used reminds of cheating really

I mean sure, but dummy has been controversial lately so probably more

If it is controversial already, how do you plan on pushing THIS map through the controversy now

Sure, some of it is quite OP. But it's limited on the maps you can use it on. Many maps usually have a disadvantage for using dummy, normally harder ones

That does not justify allowing it on others, more like these that you can use it on should be fixed

Fair enough, but in general I just don't see it as a huge deal.

It's likely going to cause more drama if it's removed (maybe)

Most people dont. Only a select few are opposed to it. There are tons of players in china that can psuedo fly. I saw 4 different people get far in the map. Seemed to enjoy it.

Dummy-use is controversial ALREADY because of only the ability to speedrun maps and now you want to push through a map that you have a huge advantage on by running it with a dummy not only in terms of speedrunning but also in terms of finishing the map

Yes, the map will be done with dummys and top times can most likely only be dummys.

If the guys can pseudo with real people then surely they can pseudo with a dummy and get a top time.

And this is the core problem

For you yes

not the people who enjoy playing with dummys

Speedrunning, sure. But how does other people finishing the map with dummy or not impact you? I mean I have not checked out the map myself but it seems like they have thought of it with 2p

so either fix how its calculated on the forum

or delete dummy

I personally wouldn't mind some separate leaderboard or something, but I think thats been discussed before and there were some potential issues even if they wanted to implement it

If this was pretty much intended for dummy only might as well just make it a dummy map

And call it a day

But then that makes people more likely to play with dummy instead of an actual player (you still easily could though)

Well the games not going away anytime soon. So maybe fix it for going forward and leave all previous as they are. Which is the only way you can do it because you cant prove who is or isnt a dummy now.

Maybe they can add rules for maps going forward, that have separate leaderboards. But again, pointless in my eyes.

Many of the issues with DDNet seem to be just cause they have existed for years and have already been used a lot.

Soapy about to hit you with some logic holup

Think strong/weak. That was a bug, no?

BROSO flying wasnt even possible when the game started

no one knew you could hammer fly

Lmao

Ya things get discovered and start getting used a lot. Wouldn't surprise me if there were some people mad at the thought of flying

Pretty similar to today

btw

i used the same part in my dummy map right but how about this map? using the same part all over again hmmm idk bro

xD yea you did make a great tutorial on that 1 part youre right xD

And uh, which part did i use all over? xD

I get the concern for speedruns but as far as I know we aren't banning maps just because they are easier with a dummy. Currently who or how one can do the map fastest isn't really a concern.

If that is something we should take seriously then that's an issue to raise with moderators not really on a map channel. If you can convince moderators to ban maps that are faster with dummies then we will adjust the map but at the moment it isn't breaking any rules.

As for why we made a pseudo fly map, this map was requested by quite a few players that enjoy pseudo flying. From their testing and feedback it seems like they enjoy the map and want it.

If there was a large enough community asking for kinta fly maps we would make one too.

I am open to a discussion on banning maps that don't favour teamwork but making maps unbeatable with dummy sounds like a bad idea.

going right up going left up its always the same

did you see the part where we go left down or right down? surely you did ....

thats like, 3 more parts than you had.

Yes, in some sense all fly maps will have that problem of being kinda samey. It's the problem with all maps that are all about a single idea.
Although I don't think that makes a map bad, assuming the parts do have some variation and feel different.

400% increase

Jimmy isn't a 400% increase mean it's 500% what it was before?

Somehow your math scares me XD

xD

regardless, stonks

Restless pseudo is pointless to us anyways and why even add +30 min penalty when it’s slower but i get it, it’s more easy for sure. I just want to see demo of someone finishing this as 2P without restless pseudo mode and their time

bruh

i said i already finished with cireme and iparano

Without the mode?

Good thing we didnt make restless for you.

less than than 20min

yep

He did

Alright though this thread has really gotten off topic.
So please keep your final thoughts here brief so we can get back to the topic of the map.

I will raise the concerns raised by Genex and Freezy with the other testers and see what everyone thinks.

try with me if you want :o

Fair enough

I need sleep anyway

Okay but it still won’t reach top5 imo vs dummies

So separate leaderboard if its not too much work

i mean only a smol % of player cares about ranks

^

Yeah understandable they don’t care about us, already know since it’s such small playerbase

remove dummy

Wait wasnt this mapped for spooky as you said he asked for it and now he is against it?

He did ask for it. He said nothing about dummys. This was before rockus drama. Before Plant dominated Just fly and all fly maps

You can see why im annoyed 🙂

so the only problem is dummy right ?

if so, the greatest solution is to remove dummy from this map ?

best solution is to disable copy fly so everyone has a fair chance at pseudo without the added speed from copying.

not copy fly * copy bind sorry

nahhh

Yeah i asked for it but now i see it as a big problem. Just look every fly map and tell me it’s not more than 50% only dummies

the real prob is dummy since no coordination is needed

real fix is option to remove dummy from the map /server

like deepfly or idk

then the map is for 10 people

less

how many can drive pseudo ?.

im practicing with someone but its hard af xD we can kinda do it.

i dont like all of these dummy top ranks either but i dont think its logical to ban them just because some of them exist xd

My friend XxDarknezz can pilot it

Yeah then it would be gatekeeping far more people from the map so i agree

I’d rather see who can do most best time as 2p than with dummy, it would take alot more 100% reaching same time what u can do with dummy in like short time

Since controlling pseudo with dummy is like 100x easier

remove dummy

Or put it on the dummy server, since like i said, many people cant and never will play with other people for SUCH a hard mechanic

Removing dummy hurts smaller communities that don't always have people to play with.

Like south africa 🙂

well remove on this map

xD this is going nowhere

remove pseudo!

xD

How many people will actually play this as 2p? Real question

you are okay with removing dummy cause you would get r1 with a real player anyway

Remove plant, otherwise all top 10 times will be plant + someone else and WE CANT HAVE THAT

You know how much people would want to have even try without dummy for R1 example Legendary map like Just Fly 1 but just can’t because Plant goes brr

You can try.. 😄

With a dummy xD

remove dummy

if I turn that 8 into 800 can we keep dummy and remove plant?

But i’m not saying Plant doesn’t deserve example Just Fly 1, he does he hella grinded for that rank

PlantKnight is what happens if you run Just Fly 1 in an AI simulation 10 million times.

you dont have friends ?

The number of friends Jimmy Jazz has seems very off topic now...

my map was also off topic so? ^^

maybe this map is something for the fun server?

I agree, so let's all stay on topic and fight with each other in other channels XD

seems like you are the only normal person here xd

I agree its very lame that on fly map there gonna be only dummy ranks in top, but not releasing it just because of that is also not right imo if the map is good. Only good solution i see is to split dummy and 2 human ranks, but its impossible to do now and just because of few maps i dont think it worth effort of devs to think how to implement such system

fuck dummy pseudo

if you guys want the dummy top 5, just put that map on dummy category

kicker came back from the grave

interesting how people complain about dummy rank 1s but dont give a fuck about people who get a top10team time with 8 names

We do but they don’t do anything against it, so what you want to do?

ik we cant do anything

but can we separate dummy ranks from 2p ones?

only viable way is by someone manually reviewing every finish

as far as i know there isnt a technical solution for it yet

i didnt need an answer to that i just wanted to show spooky that the two problems are the same (kinda)

holy heck ive never seen other speedrunning communities be so negative over speedrunning and they are x200 bigger than ddnet,first we had the debate over teehistorian and how bad it is for everyone to see each other speedrun,cause we dont want anyone to be better than us and see how bad our time actually was and give someone else the opportunity to showcase better routing and execution now we have people crying over dummies taking over top spots for the rankings cause these "speedrunners" are too lazy to learn a new set of skills and the tools are literally available to EVERYONE so why are they shitting and pissing all over themselves instead of taking the time to get better at new techniques

top5 based people

teeworlds is everything that speedrunning communities arent about

I think the only complain of fly maps is that u can make TEAMranks without teammates, but that's a thing that only involve devs, imo from testing if the map is good it should be released, if all ranks are dummies is not testing issue.

i dont got it, well yeah pseudo fly has been a new mechanic discovered with dummy, so why is that a problem to play this map with dummy, and get some good rank with? i dont got it.

Also if you think about it, Just Fly, Just Hookfly, Just Rocketfly were maps where you can improve the mecanics. I've no shame to say i've learn hammerfly on Just fly and hookfly on Just Hookfly, and rockefly on Just RocketFly. So why not release a map where u can also improve your pseudofly skills ?

Also in this map you got a full tutoriel of pesudofly, and you know how many people wants to learn it, and it would be the perfect place where they could unstead of team 0 hh maps (im pretty sure you can agree with this)

So yeah some maps has dummy r1, like just fly, thats a fact, but i dont see any problem on this, because we all can learn pseudo dummy like PlantKnight did. We all free to learn and masteries it so toprank dummy on this kind of maps isnt a problem.

Simple solution, just remove dummy from the game entirely

https://youtu.be/E7P16JjruJY

nice u put spooky in hisp lace

you say this like you are as good as him

Maybe they are

Maybe they are just faking it

2p playthrough means nothing tho, its still easier with dummy and top5 will be full of dummies anyway

broken envelope moment how to, part 1

how to, part 2

Will double check by I think this is a weird graphical bug that is client side only.

people crying that dummy is too op now when dummy was fucking weak af like 1 year ago

its still weak unless you play with dummy half the time

i play dummy all the time cuz no friends

Im can be your friend

Release please

never

plant will probably play this for the rest of his life if rlsed

this map has not even been tested yet, just ppl complaining about dummy ranks xD

lmao yea

Th big question, rls map, or let Plant have a long fulfilling life

this is all plant wants to do im pretty sure

lets plan test then? c:

day 2 of asking to release the map

Where’s the please

the sentence would not have been correct

if a add a please

Day 2 of asking: please release the map

Tho I suppose that one sounds a bit more passive aggressive

rls or else

$reafy 5

oops i misspell

LMFAO

reafy

so close

now do that again but slightly move your keyboard to the right

louis uses colemak

oh

weirdo

Maybe also add tutorial on Chinese language since half of game can speak only Chinese? This map being played on Chinese test server very often

nah it just me and my friend

the password of test server didnt even write in any chinese community and they cant use discord

I’ve seen 6+ people last days at morning

eu time

Online on test servers doesn’t matter that much anyway. It’s just gonna be very nice if u add tutorial on chinese since it half of playerbase

I did actually say this to soapy when we were making the tutorial. We kinda just forgot about it i guess because there was so much work to do elsewhere.

day 2 of asking to please release the map

perfectly valid English

release

when i said t wasn’t correct i meant it would not sounded like i wanted it to sound like

plant did you see the drawing

yes it’s beautiful

|| and accurate ||

||i know

.||

it still not talking about the map

pls wait 5 more months before a tester can look at the map, as is procedure

every joke like that adds a month penalty

so now its being delayed by 3 more months

talking about the delay adds a half month penalty

its a map by Jimmy & Soapy, so it starts with a 6+ month delay anyways

but this time it's not a switch hell so someone might dare to test it sooner

the testers have to be tested with the tester test to be able to test this map in testing, so that adds 1 more year to delay

oic

Ryu i think it's best to only complain if clearly some maps are getting tested instead of others, and for a long time. normally the maps i see that get complained about have been stale for longer

i think he was just trolling

Doesn't tester tester's test tester need to be tested adding 2 more years ?

true

i know he was trolling but it should be reserved for actual tester pokes, when it matters

using "pls test" as a joke means testers won't acknowledge any of it, even if it's serious

ohok

pls dont test map

ok now it will get rlsed in 5 secs

||release||

||shut||

||u||

what about to move this map to dummy server but both tees get finish? like just rocketfly 1 & 2, i think teamranks from those maps doesn't count in global teamrank points

that already further discourages 2p runs though

i think they wanted to atleast somewhat encourage a 2p run or atleast not have it only be ran w/ dummy (obv you still can but you dont get teamranks)

i think doesn't matter since if some ppl just want try 2p runs they can just do it and its ok since they both will get rank and points, the only problem of this map is just that top 1-10 will be just spammed with dummy, literally noone will speedrun as 2p

i mean u get teamrank anyway, but why u want even a teamrank if cant top10 at least

ig yea

i wanna see your head when we'll in top5 easily with plant

it doesnt change anything if you do a top5 rank since there are only 5 players who can do 2p with decent speed

so the top10 will be still spammed with dummy players lol

So what you're saying is, it's possible 2p but people dont want to put in the effort and would rather not learn a new mechanic

Dummy is also available to everyone so they are also too lazy to learn it from that side also...

cap

every player should ask plant as a partner so they can finish it 2p

cuz people will love how interesting it is to play with 2p and actually learn it !

When are we moving this map to dummy server, since top10 is filled with only dummy finishes and only one 2p finish?

It's probably even more because people can name change 😂

but this map doesnt encourage using a dummy at all

you have same chances to get a good rank with/without dummy

🤡

XD

its ok lets just release more hammerhit i cant wait uwu lets GOOOOOOO

It's always the same problem when it comes to skills and coordination

Let's have a retrospective view on aleds and edgehooks

It was madness and not everyone was fond of it, yet, it's pretty standard now

People will complain about the game because of their setup, not able to play because they have bad synergy with others, because of Internet issues, or a bad keyboard

Dummies have been a problem on many maps

Why would you hate that map especially

It's either we release that map and you train with a friend to improve or you get better with your dummy, OR one removes dummies from the game (which might not happen)

I'm not fond of fly maps but you can still finish it

If you are running for a top rank, go for it and train to be amonst the best

who said this map shouldnt be released

cuz it looks like your argument is about only releasing this

I'm for a release

Unless there are good arguments to make me change my mind

?

the problem is not with the map

but how dummy gives a way bigger upper hand over 2p

discourages 2p gameplay

It's implicit, people being against the map because of the dummy

So they'd rather not want to see the map because of that so-called disadvantage

The problem is why hate here when it's been a recurrent problem for a long time now, on many maps, not just fly maps

idk you could compete with those?

just fly not really

but others ye

here you cannot get r1 with a realy player

unless plant doesnt play it with dummy

I'm not even a player anymore, it's not up to me. I'm not looking for challenges

I've seen plant and parano play together and it was even more efficient than with a dummy

i have doubts about that

After seeing people's skills with dummies it honestly seems like a great deal of maps have this problem of being faster with a skilled dummy player. Any map that is open enough to fly through I'd think it would be hard to compete with a decent dummy player that can pseudo fly quickly.

In theory a player would be faster than a dummy but that might just take a lot of hard work to achieve. No idea if it's humanly possible or not cause we are talking way above my current skill level.

" the only problem of this map is just that top 1-10 will be just spammed with dummy, literally noone will speedrun as 2p"

it will have like 3 2p rank in the top10

pseudo fly is not enough to make a good r1

coradax was really good with flying and with generaly gameplay

thats why he got so much r1 's

So it's 3 times better than this map in your eyes?

It is currently the case of many maps

like on aimbot?

where a 2p teams have no disadvantages compared to dummy

I didn't say every map

i didnt etiher?

it happens mostly on linear maps where you do a part then go to the next

ˆ

I'm fine with changing the map if it is required.

So what needs to change first: Maps with faster dummy times need to be banned from release on DDNet. Pseudo fly proven to be faster with dummy on this map. (It may be possible that 2 people are better than 1 with dummy but that might require practice that people haven't yet put in to achieve). OR Convince the testers to reject this map unless changed.

Until that's done this map isn't breaking any rules.

Or people aren't ready yet, so post it again in a year or two

"Maps with faster dummy times need to be banned from release on DDNet." btw this includes like 5 maps totally

and i probably said too much with 5

you either make map kinda undummyable

or the top10 will be spammed with dummy

there is no middle way

but you cannot argue 2p = dummy

Ok, I'd recommend trying to get a pole or some vote done or get enough people to sign that they want this change and take that to the testers or someone who can make the change. Posting on this map isn't really the best way to get attention for your cause imo.

wdym by "Posting on this map isn't really the best way to get attention for your cause imo." 😂

I would say 2p > dummy. It just might be extremely hard to do but 2 players can always do exactly what 1 player and a dummy can do and more.

have you seen this?

im trying to make you understand whats the problem with the map for most people

but as a dummy player i actually dont care about top10 filled with dummys

but a lot of people do care

Aye look at mine👀

ik 😳

I haven't seen most people asking for the change though. Hence again I say this isn't the best place/way to go about getting a change made to mapping rules. Instead asking for a pole or collecting names on a sign up sheet is a better approach imo. That might not actually change anything in the end but it may be more effective at changing the rules.

Personally I don't see a reason for the change of rules and thus will keep the map as it is unless it is required. Oh or you can convince Jimmy Jazz cause I'll do it if he really wants XD

If maps like Ravillion,808,Aimbot, Somnium can stay in brutal/insane then this map should stay in brutal,you aren't encouraged to play those maps with dummy but its going to get you into top10

its only going to get you in the top10 if you a really good at the map (wich is the same case as here i guess)

I probably still won't move this map to dummy server if it's required though, I'd instead try build something to add a time penalty if you are playing with a dummy. As we want to encourage players to try this map 2p also. If we put it on dummy then I think fewer people will even try 2p.

but only after a year normal ranks might be able to compete with dummy

I see pseudo as the next "need to learn" skill if you really want to push speedruns to the limit just like when aled was new and people started to use it in maps where aleds could skip some parts when it wasn't intended

i think this map only need time

to players get as good as with players as with dummys

Well they can only get good at it if this map actually releases and they can practice on it

Just every fly isn't really a good place to practice pseudo and there aren't other maps that teach you how to do it

This is exactly my thoughts

lmao

A solution could be to create a "fly category", as they aren't brutal nor dummy maps

They actually don't fit anywhere

but the problem would be the same

Yes but it wouldn't be considered a dummy map nor a brutal one

Maybe the points or teamrank points could be reduced as well ?

ye but it doesn't change the fact that you can get a teamrank with dummy

That's why it could be a special category

So it doesn't matter

We can't do anything about it unless we have accounts and a clean start

The thing is that people agree that it's more of a "dummy" map, but it can't be one

ye i know that but there is litteraly no good solution or what ?

it's the same debate everytime and no conclusion

The only way to accept both 2p and dummy runs would be to make it a unique section. But by doing so, we should be consistant and add all the other fly maps as well

That's what snail and I thought about

Until we have accounts

With accounts, we could have a normal ladder and a dummy one

so we wait until accounts to release the map ?

Or we get a new category and people can still enjoy the game and fly maps, and to train pseudofly in particular, until we have accounts or another solution

We could also remove teamrank points (if that's the issue)

yea why not but you could still get rankpoints and R1s ?

ah

(I was faster)

(that's what she said)

my current understanding is that we agree that 2p is very much possible, even more so if more people learn the technique, which this map helps with the actual problem some people have seems to be the top team ranks people seem to disagree on whether its fine that the top team ranks will be populated by dummy ranks (it is unsure if this will change once people get good at this fly technique)

what I think is disregarded a bit too much, is that this only concerns speedrunning. if I'm not mistaken, speedrunners make out only a small part of the players that play such maps

question: are the 'speedrunners' all for this map, mixed, or against this map

They are against the fact that it is a brutal map (if I got it right)

They want it to be a dummy map

But it can't be a dummy map

no they are against dummy because it's easier

Yeah spooky even said "ah pog pseudo fly map..! Ah nvm, its a dummy map"

So basically they want the map forced 2p parts in my eyes. And that really really limits who the maps gets to.

Could we force a map to be played as 2p or solo with dummy ?

Not actually sure. You mean in server settings?

Yeah, team force players of same IP or different IP if you want it to be played with a dummy or not

I dont know i havent tried or looked into that. If it's not possible i dont know how hard it is to implement the code.

However, i can pseudo with other people, and i have a friend who can pseudo with other people. So we would prefer if the map has both options

If we could say force both options and somehow add a time penalty to the dummy option, im all for that.

Or just remove the teamrank points so it doesn't matter and people can still have fun

Also okay with me. I wont be competing for top time. And maybe in 5 years half the ranks are with 2p teams, and they revert

we have no idea how people will or can progress in the future.

is all those thing necessary ? just for 25 rank points and a R1

if it's just 25 rankpoints just need to speedrun a garbo unspeedruned ddmax

I always thought its fine. All it says is "this guy is has the best time with a dummy" Heres some points, you earned it.

Doesnt really matter that there are dummys in place of a real person. It just means, the best way to run this map, currently is with a dummy. Try beat it. If you cant, well that determines how the map should be ran. And that is okay, because there are literally a hundred maps with multiple dummy in top 10 if im not mistaken. maybe more.

I dont think we need to revamp the entire system just cause of this map xd

Lets just rls it on brutal

There will be more maps like this

and others that strike controversy with dummy

But yes, lets release it on brutal please :3

release release release release

Gotta post update later,

gave a lot of tips and noticed some mistakes

The first test xD after all this text. damn xD

release release release release release release release release

i wouldnt be surprise since you're the only 2players that can do that xd and btw top5 is zzz, i dont see the problem for release it as dummy map and both get finish, just teamrank points doesn't count

release

later

i do think there is a max ip setting

so you could technically force that

yeah i dont think it matters that much if dummy fills up top10 cause everyone can play with dummy. If you want to be a true speedrunner you will have to be able to be good at all of these things. In speedrunning the goal is to get the fastest time, so why should we limit these mechanics that are a core of the game? If people want top time on those maps, they have to learn to play with dummy on those maps, or find another way around.

yeah you are right, they are forced to learn to play with DUMMY for get top time, that fits nice into DUMMY server no?

You can do it 2p aswell

well one of the purposes of the map is to teach the flight technique - also for duo players in dummy servers you don't expect the map to be doable as a duo however, in duo difficulties maps are often also doable with dummy

JUST RELEASE

THIS IS GETTING NOWHERE !!!!

speedrunners arent the majority of the playerbase. Its very much doable with 2p, so why would it be dummy? You arent forced to learn with dummy to play the map, you are forced to learn the dummy to SPEEDRUN the map, which shouldn't dictate which category a map is in. (Atleast not entirely)

release

And sure, it definitely is easier with dummy, but they also want the map to be open to 2p runs. You could still play 2p in a dummy server but its less likely to happen IMO

rls

become tester and $release

actually i find this easier without dummy

i've got more experience as duo than dummy

ya ig if you practice with 2p more than you do with dummy

usa is too antisocial for that

ratio, usa's problem kekw

tru

Just release already

Ok so let's end this off topic thread. If anyone has problems with what maps are allowed or what categories we need to force maps into please take it up in a relevant chat.

This map isn't breaking any rules, go change the rules if you want the map changed.

This channel is for testing feedback on the map, not for a debate about what maps are acceptable and in which servers.

Made part 3, 10 and 11 a little bit easier by giving more space in certain areas.

Added switch on at part 11 that i previously forgot to add in.

Added undeep on TO15 at last part.

Thanks to

for the test. I didnt go with your other tips tho :3

What i didnt touch any stoppers you mad bot

why mad

Cause its lying + delirious

mad = crazy

uff

How do i un mirror something i never mirrored?

mirror it maybe

xD

Im gonna try replacing those 2 stoppers xD

release

oui

RELEASE !

oops

Im trying

$Reset

release

release

release

release

Is this a map to learn pseudo-fly as driver? Pls release

release

releasn't

releasn't

https://tenor.com/view/pognt-gif-18873136

map is not updated to test server

should be now

release

u forgot to say it in the last few days :/

seems like this will be declined

i would have get banned/mute if i done that

$decline

$decline

$optimize

actually why cant we do a vote like in

vote would be cool

whether or not it would actually effect release time all that much

community should have some control

why vote

it's a map

we already vote on all maps

/map Stronghold

/map Water Lily

release

can u bums stop spamming

fr

spamming doesnt do anything

can u tester decline map?

itll probably get released in the future when someone decides to test it

i think the vote thing is actually a good alternative to constant spam on loved maps

good outlet

Release

keep spamming = get mute from testing

saying "release" does nothing

probably hurts more than helps

im ready to test gameplay if needed

What changed?

Logo moved behind tees clouds changed, 1 skip prevention.

Another update coming soon XD

Added extra cp on the way to the pro room.

do let me know if you wanna redo that image and if the cloud speed must change.

Do you like it

?

I changed the image and added a layer called "Helmet back" in group 3 "doodads"

It's on the test server

Haha that looks sick XD Will take a look in game tomorrow 🙂 Also need to get Jimmy's opinion But thanks 🙂

Alright ! 🙂

Did you change the size of the images ?

Also, the clouds need to be slowed a bit

Haha trying to avoid doing clouds cause it's lots of work XD

If it's well done, changing the time period doesn't change anything 😛

I mean, it won't break

They all need specific starting times to ensure they are spread out around the map.
Changing the time period doesn't update their starting times thus it creates overlaps/gaps

That's weird, I never do it like that 😄

Yeah but there isn't really a better way to do it unless I make the clouds fly 2times the length of the map and double the amount of clouds?

I'll look at how you did it tomorrow

Sounds good and then for the image sizes. Can you just explain to me again what needs to be done XD

Actually I just looked and I see what you do

You could be simpler

I don't know of a simpler way that doesn't double the amount of clouds XD

There would be even less clouds actually

for the same effect

? do tell

Add two clouds with a very specific distance between them thanks to the grid (256 for example ?)

Put that value as x in the animation envelop

Now, you can change the time period without breaking everything

Ah and have them swap places. But then i would have to align all the clouds perfectly with that grid

Yep

It's what I always do

So it feels like it's going forever when it's only moving a few tiles away and replacing the previous one

If you struggle, I'll help you

Yeah, I think that ends up with the same number of clouds but would be editable which is nice. I will do it tomorrow, shouldn't have much trouble with it 🙂

Thanks again Pipou

No problem ! 😛

Looks really cool thanks

.

And so does your hammer xD 😮

speeders in spawn?

Yeah soapy did a couple fixes that I think coke suggested, and this was one of them 😛 Then he forgot to upload that map to test server. So when i grabbed the latest map, it had none of his changes xD

xD

Thanks I.K.U will add them in 🙂

Added speeders Fixed 2nd plant statue Added another training area for aleds Adjusted secret

Improved aled section Tweeked Colours Added 3 fly Entities signs in training area Did strange copilot restless pseudo xD

soapy soapy soapy....

Noob.

Fixed map complaining XD

Hey

, group 9 has an offset and the helmet is in that group. You should move it to another one

Also, you should really use the grid when placing quads

I never like being restricted in my placing XD Will look into it

Well it's better if you try to do advanced designs

Also, I made a version with the fixed helmet and clouds

Or at least, my suggestion for clouds

That way, you can edit the speed

You could also do it with an offset just like you did but you would need to make a sheet with all the spaces to have the same result

Does leave the clouds feeling a lot more predictable though. But I do see how the grid could really help with placing them all. Also would need another envelope for the front most clouds cause it is the same as one back cloud layer now.

With the only benefit being control able cloud speed I think it is still nicer the way we did for the lack of distinct patterns. Athough I can think of many places this method would greatly benefit me XD
I always found it hard lining up animations like this because I never use the grid XD

It's just an example, you could add more envelops with different kind of spaces 😄

And yeah, I used the same envelop for the clouds in the back to be faster

The smallest grid has a spacing of 32px

I just zoomed out of a bit for a 64px grid

I did 30(spaces)*64px=1920 for Clouds1 for example

True you would just need more of a gap in between cloud repeats to make it feel more random.

Yep

I just wanted to show you the way ^^

Yeah I have done the repeats like that before on predictable things like water flowing. Just never used the grid for it. I just manually insert the values where it should be XD

actually not a bad map, made me learn 1 single thing so its good

so far what i can get

that hurts just watching it

+ignore bottom left corner, no bind for pseudo

Very impressive

I think this is good XD

what did you learn? XD

how to just pseudofly

lol

how to not pseudofly

Release.

corner

$optimize

$ready 5

Declined.

can u delay the release by 1 day for each "when release" chat messages here

great idea, when release?

when release

esaeler nehw

please release sunday i'm not able to play saturday

i counted 27 spam messages which rounds up to 30 and thats actually 108 in base 36 which looks similar to 10^8 so we can release in 2739 centuries

just in time for teledge 2

When release

honestly i was thinking about doing such thing if ppl kept on spamming

welp if people spam this that means they really want to play this map, what you can do is banning those people who spam this but didnt pass or didnt even try the map xd

which i believe no one will get ban

Okay please no more spam, no more asking for release or when release everyone and anyone 🙂

the maps ready, lets chill xD My switch hell maps have been here for longer before so it's really okay.

Delaying the map cause random people spam will probably just encourage trolling and punish map makers. I'm for trying to reduce the spam but there's better ways.

Probably would need to give people a way to express their opinions without spamming (for the genuine ones) and ban the trolls.

le pouvoir appartient au peuple !

le peuple a parlé..

le croissant au croissant

waw ça a pris assez de temps, le temps d'aller apprendre à just psuedo fly

oui

when release

pseudo*

i will pSUEdo u

Sorry im not from America

Wednesday

Thursday now

When release

release coming in 2024

found a huge skip on this map

go touch starting line then come here

save around 6sec on first part

do you want to fix this or what

before speedrun community get crazy

Good spot cheeser fix made and should be uploaded soon and any ranks using it will be deleted 🙂

Sopay trollwich

Imagine not seing this

Was one of the last things added to the map but ye true xD

just curious, how many record deleted?

every single one

my 2 and a half hours for nothing