00:05 < bridge> <TsFreddie> 🔥
05:48 < nev> is bam useful
05:49 < nev> for anything else?
05:49 < nev> wait didn't I ask this before
05:51 < jtbx> i'm sure it is, by all means I'd use it over cmake which is a bit bonkers
05:51 < jtbx> it seems like it's still in active development, matricks is still pushing patches
05:57 < bridge> <d_une> I've used it for smaller projects, because cmake's custom language sucks. Likely there are some newer projects that do it better/are more feature-complete, but I didn't go through the hassle of finding them
05:58 < bridge> <d_une> For the bigger stuff, nothing beats the portability, feature-completedness of cmake, and you can rely on the relevant people knowing how to operate it
06:57 < nev> xmake for one seems like the go to right now, though I can't even compile it
06:57 < nev> irony, can't make the maker
07:47 < jtbx> @d_une you must have been around when cmake support for teeworlds was implemented, do you know why it was added? what did people dislike about bam?
08:12 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> iirc heinrich pushed that because he likes standardized tools that new contributors know jtbx
08:13 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/issues/1586
08:13 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/pull/1730
08:14 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> It being added to ddnet came without much explanation o.O https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/pull/630
09:01 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @AssassinTee you still have not accepted the invite o.O Did the push notification piss you off somehow? :c 
09:01 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @AssassinTee the idea of the project is that those four 🚀 reactions could have been a merge in the community repo https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/pull/3136#issuecomment-1656091198
09:03 < bridge> <AssassinTee> No you didn't piss me off, it's just a time issue right now. My workload varies a lot, there are weeks where I work 60 hours, and there are weeks where I sleep 20, currently I am collecting overtime hours
09:07 < bridge> <AssassinTee> I accepted your invite for now. Please note, that I have two github accounts (one for work, one private) and I am probably missing some notifications. I am happy to do some reviews but currently have no time to implement any huge features myself
09:16 < bridge> <AssassinTee> I wonder why you did your own mirror bot instead of just using the pull-app
09:17 < bridge> <AssassinTee> https://github.com/wei/pull
09:39 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @AssassinTee yea reviewers are needed more than new prs for now. Feel free to do as much as you want. Oh interesting I did not know about wei/pull 
09:56 < bridge> <d_une> jtbx: it is a very political issue
11:03 < bridge> <AssassinTee> Me: I wish for my own airplane
11:03 < bridge> <AssassinTee> Santa: oh, that's very expensive, do you have any other wishes?
11:03 < bridge> <AssassinTee> Me: I wish for an alternative for cmake, which is intuitive, requires less boilerplate and still works in 20 years
11:03 < bridge> <AssassinTee> Santa: which color do you want for you plane?
11:04 < bridge> <AssassinTee> Jokes aside, there are other build-systems like mezon and bazel, but the main benefit of cmake is that most other projects use it and it's easier to integrate other projects. I personally like bam
11:05 < bridge> <AssassinTee> In the end it doesn't matter, as long as thing.compile() works
14:20 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @d_une would it be cool for you if id invite you to https://github.com/teeworlds-community/teeworlds?
14:21 < bridge> <d_une> What do you want to achieve? Beyond "more PRs more code"?
14:21 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> a passing pipeline
14:21 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> no compile errors or warnings
14:21 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> more bugs fixed
14:21 < bridge> <d_une> Isnt there CI in teeworlds/teeworlds already?
14:21 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> its not functional right now
14:22 < bridge> <d_une> Huh, how comes?
14:22 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> its full of compiler warnings and oy is afk since 1 year to merge the fixes
14:22 < bridge> <d_une> Because of newer compilers?
14:22 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> ye
14:22 < bridge> <d_une> That doesn't sound like the priority
14:22 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> c++ and python deprecated so much that barley anything works
14:22 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> that is priority for me to have a fresh codebase 
14:23 < bridge> <d_une> I'm sure -std=c++11 fixes a lot of that
14:23 < bridge> <d_une> why? What's the point of  "refreshing" code?
14:23 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> that you can base mods on it or use it in any other active way
14:23 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> have  codebase that compiles without warnings
14:23 < bridge> <d_une> But that's exactly what makes mods hard to maintain
14:24 < bridge> <d_une> Unnecessary large code changes
14:24 < bridge> <d_une> Try updating mods from 075 to trunk now
14:24 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> i wouldn't consider bug fixes unnecessary large code changes
14:24 < bridge> <d_une> I mean the other stuff
14:24 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> which other stuff?
14:24 < bridge> <d_une> 2024 compiler warnings arent bug fixed
14:24 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> oh i consider it bug fixed and neccessary
14:24 < bridge> <d_une> Refreshing the codebase =/= fixing bugs, is it?
14:25 < bridge> <d_une> Ok, well guess we disagree on that
14:25 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> but ye there is also actual crash bugs and so on that i would like to see fixed
14:25 < bridge> <d_une> I see
14:25 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> yes so would you be offended if i sent you an invite @d_une?
14:25 < bridge> <d_une> I don't mind but I don't see the end goal
14:25 < minus> fwiw i have full control over the teeworlds github org
14:25 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> comes with no obligations i think you should have it
14:26 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @d_une have some codebase that is overlooked by someone while oy is afk
14:26 < bridge> <d_une> To me if you develop something you should have an end product in mind
14:26 < bridge> <d_une> If the product is "fixed some bugs" I think very few people are interested
14:27 < bridge> <d_une> Unfortunately
14:27 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> minus i dont think that helps unless you can get prs merged?
14:27 < bridge> <d_une> I think minus is hinting he's upset at the oy situation
14:27 < minus> maybe
14:27 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @d_une yes but thats the end product idea for me at least. Another idea is that my opinion does not matter too much. Everyone has 1 vote. All prs with 4 approvals can be merged,
14:28 < minus> just saying we could totally change things, it's not like we don't have access to anything
14:28 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> that sounds like a dick move minus
14:28 < bridge> <d_une> That sounds like a good way to get (slightly) popular, yet bug-ridden features
14:29 < bridge> <d_une> since Oy is still reachable it should be at the minimum an ultimatum addressed to him, not a silent takeover
14:29 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> yea lets see how it goes @d_une im also not sure if anything useful will come out of it. But i really want to have tried it
14:29 < minus> oy is obviously not doing anything in a useful capacity. moving on without him and stopping to wait on him would be the right call
14:30 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @d_une ye a silent takeover is not nice. But him being reachable is news to me? I sent him emails pinged him on github. He has ghosted me since years.
14:30 < minus> it's what i'd do if i had a stake in teeworlds, but i don't really have
14:30 < bridge> <d_une> Feels like that would at least require approval from matricks or teetow
14:30 < bridge> <d_une> Both are reachable as well
14:30 < minus> yes
14:31 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> yes matricks and teetow are way more reachable than oy
14:31 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> i can for the life of it not get ahold of oy in any way
14:31 < bridge> <d_une> Chillerdragon: you asked him to send a message, I did and told you the reply, which is pretty much what I expected it to be. It's going nowhere, with too little active, significant developers, so working to constantly merge minor PRs is a lot of meaningless work
14:32 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> That does not count
14:32 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> He ignores all direct contact and refuses to join irc
14:32 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> thats not cool
14:33 < bridge> <d_une> If there is no vision for some end product, the work is just feel-good activity that isn't actually going to benefit anyone
14:33 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> A non compiling codebase with a bunch of stale prs is what keeps developers away
14:33 < bridge> <d_une> Whats the point of Oy coming to say that to you if you dont want to hear it?
14:33 < minus> idk what you're referring to, dune, but even just getting fixes going is better than the nothing that's happening right now
14:33 < bridge> <d_une> Untrue, development was stale before Oy left
14:34 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @d_une because i havent seen the guy in years. I want to talk to him.
14:34 < bridge> <d_une> How so minus? Its a ton of regular work for something no one will update for anyway
14:35 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @d_une if oy does not want to do it thats fine. But then he should allow others to merge. Such as heinrich etc. Ik heinrich doesnt want to do it either but also he is not allowed to do so.
14:35 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> Oy should grant a hand full ppl he trusts merge powers.
14:35 < minus> ^
14:36 < minus> just never being there despite having the defacto authority and thus stalling the project is the real dick move
14:37 < bridge> <d_une> I agree it would be nice to have someone at least for the bugfixes
14:37 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> Its not like the project would go to shit if heinrich, dune, robsti would be able to merge prs. Or does someone really think that?
14:37 < bridge> <d_une> Depends what PRs
14:37 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> Does it?
14:37 < minus> heinrich does have owner permissions on github btw
14:37 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> i know minus
14:37 < minus> kk
14:37 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> but also does not help
14:37 < bridge> <d_une> Yeah its not a permission problem
14:38 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @d_une the prs can be bad if you trust the people that review them
14:38 < minus> if you clear it with optimally oy but otherwise also matricks and teetow, you have my support
14:38 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @d_une or are you saying your distrust in those ppl is so big that you think they would merge shitty prs?
14:39 < bridge> <d_une> I think oy would even accept a ruling from teetow/matricns
14:39 < bridge> <d_une> It's not distrust
14:40 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> Or do you agree with my proposal @d_une if not what bothers you?
14:42 < bridge> <d_une> It is ideal that we have someone else that can review and merge technical PRs, yes. It looks better. In the end, that's pretty much all it does though
14:43 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> You might not care about the code base starting to smell. But I do. Just because you don't get a 0.8 doesn't mean its not worth it.
14:43 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> So you are saying its not enough to merge prs? Or no good?
14:44 < bridge> <d_une> I disagree with the idea that code bases that don't move "start to smell" or are bad because suddenly the compilers think some random stuff might be indicative of something that could perhaps be not safe
14:45 < bridge> <d_une> I'm saying even with someone merging PRs, we wouldn't get to have releases that people would want to update to / move teeworlds forwards
14:45 < bridge> <d_une> activity was already steadily declining at 074/075, it's mostly just ddnet now
14:50 < bridge> <d_une> building `master` on g++11.4.0 gave me no warnings, by the way
14:56 < bridge> <d_une> By the way, another pathway that hasn't been mentioned is to call it done and archive the repository, leaving the community to its well-maintained forks. https://osgameclones.com/ is full of such
15:00 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @d_une even debian ships g++ 12.2.0
15:05 < bridge> <AssassinTee> reading your conversation, it might be useful to expand the dev team of teeworlds, so oy doesn't have to be the one holding everything alone, but the stakes are high and there are obviously issues, where everyone has a different opinion about
15:10 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> yea thats the point of the conversation :D
15:10 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> at least my argument
15:10 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> dunes argument is there is no problem right now or something like that
15:11 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> what is "074/075" @d_une?
15:12 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @d_une there is no well maintained fork of teeworlds
15:13 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> and that would then also shutdown teeworlds.com and steam?
15:13 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> i dont like that idea
15:13 < bridge> <d_une> 0.7.4 and 0.7.5
15:14 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> a
15:14 < bridge> <d_une> archive =/= shutdown, it's just acknowledging the development has stopped. we could appoint someone for security fixes
15:14 < bridge> <d_une> just mentioning that option
15:14 < bridge> <d_une> archiving the forum is actually long due
15:15 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> archiving the forum would be sad
15:15 < minus> there is a problem right now and development does not have to be stopped
15:15 < minus> the forum is dead though
15:15 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> :c 
15:15 < minus> the billions of existing spam accounts are a problem and no one really posts there anyway
15:16 < bridge> <AssassinTee> I think dune is right, check the player numbers, all servers left are DDNet servers or bridged servers. There is currently nobody playing a default gamemmode
15:16 < bridge> <d_une> yeah, can we just archive it right away
15:16 < bridge> <d_une> like Assa says, a new release would have no significant effect
15:16 < bridge> <d_une> because no one is effectively playing 0.7.5 Teeworlds
15:16 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> I don't need a new release
15:17 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> Just less reasons for devs to base their mod on ddnet 
15:17 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> because ddnet has no pvp support
15:18 < bridge> <d_une> what's the point of active development if we're not targeting a release?
15:18 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> ddnet is not a maintained version of teeworlds its something else
15:18 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @d_une a usable codebase
15:18 < bridge> <d_une> I'd say the 0.7.5 codebase is pretty usable
15:18 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> that is welcoming to new contributors and players
15:18 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> we agreed to disagree on that one already didnt we @d_une
15:18 < bridge> <d_une> I guess, yeah
15:18 < bridge> <AssassinTee> ddnet is a forked version which expaned into it's own product. I would ship missing features into ddnet and call it a day
15:19 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> or maybe i made it up im sleepy 
15:19 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @AssassinTee adding back teeworlds gameplay to ddnet is not straightforward
15:19 < bridge> <d_une> who is making forks off trunk teeworlds anyway nowadays?
15:19 < bridge> <d_une> I have seen very little mod development
15:19 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @d_une nobody
15:19 < bridge> <d_une> and those that do, I doubt they keep up with all the nightmareish changes that happened post 0.7.5
15:20 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> well idk i dont have the numbers
15:20 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @fokkonaut is doing that for example
15:20 < bridge> <d_une> so, very little
15:20 < bridge> <AssassinTee> I did until 3 years ago and saw no point of updating since, https://github.com/AssassinTee/catch64
15:20 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> he has 32 players playing his fork right now @d_une
15:21 < bridge> <fokkonaut> I dont keep up with it anymore
15:21 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> but yes its not many ppl doing it 
15:21 < bridge> <d_une> so I'm insisting, what's the point on merging PRs if (a) we're not targeting a release (b) no one cares to keep up with trunk teeworlds
15:21 < bridge> <fokkonaut> + its serverside only
15:22 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> well i do care @d_une
15:22 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> i am constantly annoyed by the compile errors i get on the trunk release
15:22 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> warnings locally
15:22 < bridge> <d_une> but then it's just you, personally?
15:22 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> that i know of yes
15:23 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> i think all others were just so annoyed they abandoned the repo
15:23 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> for that or another reason
15:23 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> i can not really speak for others
15:25 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @d_une if you need a release then target a bugfix release that would be cool
15:26 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> or editor2
15:26 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> oy rejects all editor prs because editor2 is coming
15:27 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> pick your reasons to merge prs especially the compile warnings and CI errors but you have to see that the current state is ugly.
15:28 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> We all understand that you and oy and maybe a bunch of other people have no motivation to do so and thats cool. But then at least grant some ppl powers to quickly merge easy prs that fix such things.
15:28 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> Why do I have to argue that its fucked up when the update copyright year pr gets out of date?
15:30 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> Robyt3 did a good job at improving the code base and now has 11 stale prs. 
15:31 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> There is no way that in the current state development pace picks up. If oy waits with merges until there is devs I do not see how that would happen.
15:32 < bridge> <d_une> the core argument is that there is nothing significant a release with the devs we have would achieve
15:32 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> I would call it significant.
15:33 < bridge> <d_une> even a complete editor2 wouldn't achieve anything significant imo
15:33 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> If the repo wouldn't feel as dead.
15:33 < bridge> <d_une> it's just activity for the sake of it and for good looks then
15:33 < bridge> <d_une> I don't think that's a good reason
15:33 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> I think thats a good reason.
15:33 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> If you want another good reason pick another good reason.
15:33 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> What would be a good reason for you?
15:36 < minus> ChillerDragon wants to work on teeworlds; oh no we can't have that the project is dead
15:36 < minus> is what i'm hearing
15:38 < bridge> <heinrich5991> I think this pretty much shows part of the problem. someone is trying to do something, I'm not saying it'll work, I can easily see it not working
15:38 < bridge> <heinrich5991> but he is shut down
15:38 < bridge> <heinrich5991> and then we complain about "missing developers", no point to continue the project, no one would want to, anyways
15:39 < bridge> <d_une> we've had this conversation many times, but imo this is inverting the causality, developers were missing way before Oy went away
15:39 < bridge> <heinrich5991> you are right now shutting down ChillerDragon
15:40 < bridge> <d_une> if Chiller had a project for something, I would be much more enthusiastic. What I'm hearing is activity for the sake of it
15:41 < bridge> <heinrich5991> ChillerDragon is enthusiastic about teeworlds
15:41 < bridge> <heinrich5991> he wants to develop it
15:41 < bridge> <heinrich5991> I think ChillerDragon wouldn't describe his proposal as "activity for the sake of it"
15:41 < bridge> <heinrich5991> if ChillerDragon described what you do as dismissively as you describe his, it wouldn't look good, I think
15:41 < bridge> <heinrich5991> if ChillerDragon described what you do as dismissively as you describe what he does, it wouldn't look good, I think
15:44 < bridge> <d_une> when I asked what the end goal of it was, I got "the repo wouldn't feel as dead", in his own words
15:55 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> yes so it is more appealing for new devs 
15:55 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> and more useful for mod devs
15:56 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> also i would like to see actual development and releases but i wouldn't wanna force stuff like that just for the sake of it
15:57 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> the current state just feels very broken to me. As in i would not want to base my mod on something that is full of compiler warnings and the official fork has 6 failing CI pipelines.
15:57 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> If I search for new software and it looks like the tw repo i usually search elsewhere.
15:57 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> And i also mean as a user of the software not neccesarly as contributor.
15:58 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> Not caring if there is a failing CI is like not caring about the game to me.
16:27 < bridge> <stiopa> I just see a calamitous deadlock here with the development... it would take a lot to break that deadlock :D
16:29 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @stiopa would you mind if i sent you an invite to teeworlds-community ? c:
16:30 < bridge> <stiopa> You sent me already :D I just have other matters at hand
16:31 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> woah did i?
16:31 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> how assumptios of me lol
16:33 < bridge> <stiopa> you sent me it after I said I like the initiative yesterday :p
16:33 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @d_une i have projects all the time. Or what do you mean by project? I maintain a bunch of tw mods.
16:34 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> ah right @stiopa look at me the sesitive dragon
16:35 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @d_une one projects of mine is explaining the tw code on yt and it is super embarrasing to say "yea ignore all the warnings nobody cares here"
16:36 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> if you have a passing CI as a mod dev you get binaries from github for all platforms. Especially when you only use one os and have no contributors it is super valuable to have a passing CI
16:37 < bridge> <d_une> it's a cmake version error, right? I see bam-linux is passing
16:37 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> thats one of the issues
16:37 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> cmake version is fixed by this https://github.com/teeworlds/teeworlds/pull/3212