00:34 <+bridge_> <teero777> furo: how can i add skins to https://ddstats.tw/skins/ ? its supposed to be complete, right? there are a lot of custom fox kog skins missing
00:36 <+furo> Skins are scraped from DDNet, Teedata, skins.tee.world. You can upload them there or you can just send me a zip file if you wish.
04:55 <+bridge_> <gorp_tw> Teeter and Tatro
11:07 <+ChillerDragon> @soully bun bun
11:07 <+ChillerDragon> does the mumble stuff in tclient define a constant called `IGNORE` on windows?
11:07 <+ChillerDragon> also watafak mumble??? is there voice chat in tclient now?
11:42 <+ChillerDragon> rook the bridge is currently muted ._.
11:43 <+ChillerDragon> or basically everyone in this channel is muted 
11:43 <+ChillerDragon> you can write here on matrix and on discord
11:44 <+bridge_> <realrook> hey thanks
11:44 <+bridge_> <realrook> anyway i can pm you boss?
11:46 <+ChillerDragon> u dont want to pm me
11:46 <+ChillerDragon> just tell me here :)
11:46 <+bridge_> <ryozuki> :)
11:47 <+bridge_> <realrook> sure its just tech support, idk if this is the right channel
11:48 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> This is the right channel
11:48 <+bridge_> <realrook> alr lol, do yk how ssh over wlan works?
11:48 <+bridge_> <realrook> or rather just how it is done
11:49 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Oh it’s not Teeworlds related?
11:49 <+bridge_> <realrook> no
11:49 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Then I’m not interested xd
11:49 <+bridge_> <realrook> i wanted to ask you since you host a website
11:49 <+bridge_> <realrook> fair enough
11:49 <+bridge_> <realrook> have fun then
11:49 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Maybe someone else here reads this and is interested
11:49 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> The benefit of public chatting :)
11:49 <+bridge_> <ryozuki> ill help u for 20€/h
11:50 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Good price
11:50 <+bridge_> <realrook> 😭
11:50 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Do you charge started hours fully @ryozuki ?
11:50 <+bridge_> <ryozuki> yeah
11:50 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Hm fair I guess
11:50 <+bridge_> <ryozuki> (i never rly did freelance lol)
11:51 <+bridge_> <realrook> actually my previous question was bad tbh
11:51 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Already negotiating like a pro
11:51 <+bridge_> <ryozuki> just ask ur local llm
11:51 <+bridge_> <ryozuki> this is easy peasy for em
11:52 <+bridge_> <realrook> tbh i just found an old phone
11:52 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> @sollybunny: voice chat in tclient????
11:52 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> NO
11:52 <+bridge_> <realrook> and i thought i could host it on there, but i looked through the old photos and got nostalgia
11:52 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> chatgpt can setup ssh for u ^~^
11:52 <+bridge_> <realrook> i can do that myself, it was a bad question lol
11:52 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> free + doesnt get angy at u
11:52 <+bridge_> <realrook> are yall angy at me 🥺
11:53 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> i dunno what have u done recently
11:53 <+bridge_> <realrook> no bad things
11:53 <+bridge_> <realrook> giving broken cameras to the homeless
11:54 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> thats semi evil
11:54 <+bridge_> <realrook> at least im giving to the homeless
11:55 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> @sollybunny: what the mumble do
11:55 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> mummmble
11:55 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> is a voice chat protocol
11:56 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> people host servers then u can join channels
11:56 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> thers positional audio which tclient now provides via the link plugi
11:56 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> thers positional audio which tclient now provides via the link plugin
11:57 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> So only positional information no actual voice chat?
11:57 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> yes
11:57 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> You need to manually join a mumble server for it to work?
11:57 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> yis
11:57 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Okay cute but not worth the build error
11:57 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Go revert it
11:57 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> i fixed the build error
11:57 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> hopefully
11:57 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Woah you did?
11:57 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> everyone on ddnet can joina single server and it should work
11:57 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> having push perms crazy
11:58 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> fuck
11:58 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/1460226342359662592/image.png?ex=69662541&is=6964d3c1&hm=8824538c76dc1f387db36bd7a7fde1e561bb90a748d671b41fff383237e96983&
11:58 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> So if you are at the same coordinates on Multimap I can hear you on Linear?
11:58 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> no
11:58 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> its also per server ip
11:58 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Bru I thought you pushed a new fix
11:58 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> if two people join via ipv4 and ipv6 they wont be able to hear eachoither
11:58 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> That fix failed 6 hours ago
11:59 <+bridge_> <totar> chiller how is the zip folder you're going to send me going? should I wait for it before next release?
11:59 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> 3h*
11:59 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> @totar: oh boi so good
11:59 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> ```
11:59 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> D:\a\TClient\TClient\src\game\client\components\menus_ingame_touch_controls.h(71,3): error C2143: syntax error: missing '}' before 'constant' [D:\a\TClient\TClient\debug\game-client.vcxproj]
11:59 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)>   (compiling source file '../src/game/client/components/tclient/mumble.cpp')
11:59 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> ```
11:59 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> And more
11:59 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> grr
11:59 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> it compiles on my machine
11:59 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> (my github actions msvc)
11:59 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> I spent 5 hours non stop after we talked and I did the thing
11:59 <+bridge_> <totar> woah you have local github actions setup?
12:00 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Not the thing I send you
12:00 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> I run locally yes
12:00 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> that wasnt to you
12:00 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> The thing I send you I did this morning
12:00 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> but thats cool
12:00 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> i do not, theyre so slow
12:00 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> github does them in like 30d i dunno how
12:00 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> I wanna make it good so before you rush a release ping me
12:00 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> I can finish it fast
12:01 <+bridge_> <totar> you have like a couple days, or when solly fixes the build errors, which ever happens later.
12:01 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Your machine is Windows? @sollybunny
12:02 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Or what does „it compiles on my machine“ mean xd
12:02 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> @totar: I got the simple one done. I might do fancy too
12:02 <+bridge_> <totar> ok
12:03 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> my machine is loinux
12:03 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> I can get creative there right? @totar
12:03 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> but imean on my github actions
12:03 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> https://github.com/SollyBunny/mumble-link-c/actions/runs/20910240379
12:03 <+bridge_> <totar> chillerdragon: yes but I'll review it
12:04 <+bridge_> <totar> idk what you could do that I wouldn't accept but I guess I'll see when it's done lol
12:07 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Xd
12:09 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> ah its windows.h polluting
12:09 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> thats why windows fails
12:09 <+bridge_> <totar> classic windows.h
12:09 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> mumble suggests using UINT32 from windows
12:09 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> but it should be the exact same as uint32_t but its risky
12:10 <+bridge_> <totar> it doesn't sound that risky tbh
12:11 <+bridge_> <totar> unless it causes type errors
12:11 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> mumble link communicates by a random struct
12:11 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> that you define and make shared memory for
12:12 <+bridge_> <totar> ok but the layout of a uint32 has probably not changed in 40 years
12:13 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/1460230111604379691/image.png?ex=696628c4&is=6964d744&hm=6639433cbdd5a8c065c3e8517779f8eed8cbc874e034ef2b001cf9fd6e43313b&
12:13 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> might be able to include less
12:14 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> i wish there were faster windows builds /:
12:14 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/1460230402202669170/image.png?ex=69662909&is=6964d789&hm=2abb33a1ecc9c6d9945401458d18797d7a4f350dcd9b275ae5f85f969f84c3f0&
12:14 <+bridge_> <totar> sometimes they decide to be fast
12:14 <+bridge_> <totar> depends how they're feeling
12:15 <+bridge_> <totar> oh wait that's for mumble?
12:15 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> yis
12:15 <+bridge_> <totar> are you building a properly library for it?
12:15 <+bridge_> <totar> are you building a proper library for it?
12:15 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> yis
12:15 <+bridge_> <totar> nice
12:24 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> i dont want to have to hide the struct because of windows
12:24 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> ):
12:24 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> nor do i not wana be corect
12:24 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> nor do i not wana be not 100% correct
12:24 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> https://www.mumble.info/documentation/developer/positional-audio/link-plugin/
12:24 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> why is it dword and uint32
12:24 <+bridge_> <teero777> why is the checkmark blue?
12:25 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> weird theme
12:31 <+bridge_> <remakepower> Wait what?
12:32 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/1460234863683833878/image.png?ex=69662d31&is=6964dbb1&hm=d792fb7d475536318efc6ed53f5315b6f29430ec7a2400ff5ead8bca69d3e044&
12:32 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> unsigned long is 32 bit!?
12:32 <+bridge_> <remakepower> Ah, yes, at least on windows.
12:32 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> why!
12:33 <+bridge_> <remakepower> IDK
12:33 <+bridge_> <remakepower> microsoft made strange standard on windows.
12:33 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> so DWORD==UINT32?
12:33 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> ==uint32_t
12:33 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> ish
12:34 <+bridge_> <remakepower> I think so.
12:37 <+bridge_> <remakepower> I once thought ddnet mingw workflow was compiled by msys2.
12:37 <+bridge_> <remakepower> lol
12:39 <+bridge_> <louis> whats ur secret project chillerdragon: tater:
12:39 <+bridge_> <totar> do you think the secret part was just for fun?
12:40 <+bridge_> <louis> cant be totally secret since you guys are talkingabout it in a public channel
12:41 <+bridge_> <totar> chiller doesn't exactly have dms so we make some compromises
12:41 <+bridge_> <totar> vagueness is good enough
12:42 <+bridge_> <totar> technically I could tell you if chiller allowed it, but that's up to him
12:42 <+bridge_> <totar> technically I could tell you in secret if chiller allowed it, but that's up to him
12:43 <+bridge_> <learath2> they are planning an assassination
12:43 <+bridge_> <remakepower> A secret project to controll all the teeworlds community
12:43 <+bridge_> <remakepower> :nouis:
12:44 <+bridge_> <kebscs> WORD= 2 bytes, DWORD = double word 4 bytes, 32
12:44 <+bridge_> <learath2> I took too long to review a PR, so they are putting a hit on me
12:45 <+ChillerDragon> i dont allow it! already uncomfortable we discuss this publicly tbh ._.
12:46 <+bridge_> <louis> Is there a list type in ddnet codebase in use already
12:46 <+bridge_> <learath2> In practice probably never an issue, but if you assume something like this still do add an assertion
12:46 <+ChillerDragon> @louis there are arrays
12:46 <+ChillerDragon> you can define an array of numbers like this `int aNumbers[] = {1,2,3}`
12:46 <+ChillerDragon> you are welcome
12:46 <+bridge_> <learath2> We also use vectors, but if you mean linked lists we don't really have one, we use intrusive lists
12:47 <+ChillerDragon> we have linked lists
12:47 <+ChillerDragon> inherited from teeworlds
12:47 <+ChillerDragon> magnus liked them it seems or whoever added them everywhere
12:47 <+bridge_> <learath2> They aren't generic though, no? We use intrusive linked lists weaved through the objects themselves
12:47 <+bridge_> <louis> is there a set type?
12:47 <+ChillerDragon> who said generic?
12:48 <+bridge_> <louis> oh ok std set
12:48 <+ChillerDragon> ew std
12:48 <+ChillerDragon> be careful its infectious
12:48 <+bridge_> <louis> isnt cpp std good
12:48 <+ChillerDragon> std's are never a good thing
12:48 <+bridge_> <learath2> It's fine, chiller is having a 2003 moment
12:52 <+bridge_> <louis> chiller: u already leaked a lot about ur secret project anyways
12:52 <+bridge_> <louis> gg
12:53 <+bridge_> <milkeeycat> chillerdragon: did you find a good name for your project?
13:20 <+bridge_> <melon> Finally, chillerbot'nt
14:03 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> they are adding ddminer to tclient
14:04 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> after the success of ddpasswordstaler
14:04 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> after the success of ddpasswordstealer
14:11 <+bridge_> <qxdfox> wait what
14:15 <+bridge_> <manikoo> i always knew tclient is sussy
14:15 <+bridge_> <manikoo> :kek:
14:33 <+bridge_> <sonic (Solly)> \/j i swear
14:40 <+bridge_> <melon> :nouis:
14:53 <+bridge_> <_qey> Ayo, I extended local bans to 65k, connected everything to MySQL and made bans persistent across servers. Why isn’t it the default option?
14:54 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> @totar: u went a bit bonkers. Sended you some githubbing dms
14:54 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> @totar: i went a bit bonkers. Sended you some githubbing dms
14:54 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> @_qey: send pr
14:55 <+bridge_> <_qey> I don’t PR because I think my code looks ugly 😦
14:55 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Oh Shit I am maintainer now I need to be more clear. It probably won’t be merged but I want this in ddnet++ because someone requested it
14:55 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> @milkeeycat: no .\_. It’s still called antibot-insta
14:56 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> @_qey: then pr to ddnet++ it’ll fit right in with the other ugly code
14:56 <+bridge_> <_qey> I’m also making by own antibot, struggling with false-bans for aimbot detection.
14:57 <+bridge_> <_qey> I’m trying to detect hooks outside legal FOV, but DDNet’s tick rate sucks a big one.
14:57 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Why build own antibot when you can rent cloud antibot by zillyhuhn conglomerate for a steal price of 999$ a month
14:58 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Wait is the hook longer than FOV? I feel like after 14 years of gaming I should know but idk xd
14:59 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Maybe you have a longer hook than me
14:59 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Mine is quite average I would say
14:59 <+bridge_> <_qey> I misspoke, I meant the general angle.
14:59 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Also what’s up with your name it’s so edgy @_qey
14:59 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Ah I see
15:00 <+bridge_> <_qey> I’m using several techniques to detect it, but still getting false positives from idiots with 10k mousesens.
15:00 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> How is that related to your name?
15:01 <+bridge_> <_qey> I need to get some sleep, misspeaking words and misreplying.
15:01 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Also no sense shaming please. Spin addiction is no joke.
15:01 <+bridge_> <_qey> I’ve been doing DDNet modifications for the past idk how many hours, haven’t slept in a while.
15:02 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> modder
15:02 <+bridge_> <_qey> It’s not shaming. It’s facts. They’re getting banned for their aimbot-like behavior. It’s either me making the confidence threshold higher, or them complaining for being falsely accused of hacking.
15:03 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Don’t ban the spinners
15:03 <+bridge_> <_qey> And I don’t want to set a high threshold.
15:03 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Fidget lives matter
15:03 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Better allow botting than to ban spinners
15:03 <+bridge_> <_qey> I like my name, why don’t you?
15:04 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> It’s slur
15:04 <+bridge_> <_qey> I live in a slur-free world.
15:04 <+bridge_> <_qey> Any word can be a slur if you make it a slur.
15:04 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> e oke
15:05 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Right … like ddracer
15:05 <+bridge_> <_qey> It was intended as a joke, and then I was too lazy to come up with a new name and didn’t bother to change it.
15:05 <+bridge_> <_qey> Not saying that I want to. I still see no problem in using it.
15:05 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> it still looks very much like that
15:05 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> A temporary joke. Name changing is minus aura
15:06 <+bridge_> <_qey> What did you mean by it won’t be merged?
15:06 <+bridge_> <_qey> Why?
15:06 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> To ddnet?
15:06 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Eh cuz it’s ddnet
15:06 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Idk
15:06 <+bridge_> <_qey> I have made many cool modifications that DDNet lacks.
15:07 <+bridge_> <_qey> For example, I’ve added tuning for full-auto for every gun. A very useful thing.
15:07 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> I don’t know for sure but i did not want to ask you to pr something where i see a low likelyhood of it getting merged
15:07 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> To not set wrong expectations
15:07 <+bridge_> <_qey> It was used for jetpack only AFAIK.
15:07 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Which mod are you working on?
15:08 <+bridge_> <_qey> Yes.
15:08 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Nice
15:08 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Does it have servers running?
15:08 <+bridge_> <_qey> Also yes. I just don’t want to publicly say it. Idk why.
15:09 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Ok gaypidor
15:09 <+bridge_> <_qey> Are there features that have a high likelihood of getting merged?
15:11 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Features?
15:11 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Oof
15:11 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Yes the birthday effect was merged fast
15:11 <+bridge_> <_qey> For me any modification is a feature of sorts.
15:11 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> @milkeeycat: feature: mentioned
15:12 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> @_qey: did you like the feature when they removed the freeze hammer?
15:12 <+bridge_> <_qey> I’ve created a JSON-backed punishable offenses system. For chat, whispers, names, clantags.
15:12 <+bridge_> <_qey> Didn’t know it was a thing.
15:13 <+bridge_> <_qey> Even though I first came to Teeworlds in 2013, I started modding fairly recently.
15:14 <+bridge_> <_qey> And versions! With custom reasons.
15:45 <+bridge_> <NyrrCly> :brownbear:
15:55 <+bridge_> <_qey> There’s one feature I’m specifically waiting for and it’s Steam integration, so we don’t have to reinvent the wheel on ban avoidance.
15:56 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Integrate what exactly?
15:56 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> There is some steam stuff in the client already
16:23 <+bridge_> <_qey> Client-server identification via Steam.
16:25 <+bridge_> <_qey> AFAIK, there is currently no sure way to identify a client persistently across sessions.
16:51 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Does steam offer that? Robsi was even against crash reports because the dll versions are too sensitive so idk if there is a chance this will be added
16:51 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> But sounds good to me I would also like to have it
16:52 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Most botting clients are not distributed over steam tho
16:53 <+bridge_> <_qey> Steam ID. Unique per account. You should be familiar with it.
16:53 <+bridge_> <_qey> If the auth via Steam is mandatory, they have no choice.
16:54 <+bridge_> <_qey> It would certainly hurt the player base in a way, but it’s for the good of DDNet community.
16:55 <+bridge_> <_qey> And ban avoidance isn’t the only thing why I’m waiting for it. Even account management systems would be easier to maintain with it.
16:56 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> but ddnet native accounts rather than steam accounts would be cooler
16:56 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> I don't like relying on third parties like that
16:56 <+bridge_> <_qey> But as of now, I have to develop a registration/login system, and they try to make people use it. Given that the player base is 12 yo on average, it’s not that easy of a task.
16:56 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Just create a new steam Account 🥲
16:56 <+bridge_> <_qey> But as of now, I have to develop a registration/login system, and then try to make people use it. Given that the player base is 12 yo on average, it’s not that easy of a task.
16:57 <+bridge_> <_qey> It serves as a deterrent for some. At least, it’s much harder than just turning your router off and on again.
16:58 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> if you're Steam multiaccounting to cheat in ddnet you're really inconveniencing yourself by having to log out of your main steam account
16:58 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> but I imagine that most kids that cheat on DDNet don't have anything resembling a game collection
16:59 <+bridge_> <_qey> It’s widely used and widely accepted. DDNet won’t become the new Steam any time soon. In this specific case using a third-party solution isn’t the worst of ideas.
16:59 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> I disagree with third party accounts because they can be regionally unavailable or unavailable for other reasons
17:00 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> though Steam is one of the platforms I would trust most
17:00 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Yea I would never play through steam
17:00 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> I do believe Steam has a lower age limit lower than DDNet
17:01 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> You can still use custom clients through Steam but I'd personally be inconvenienced simply by having to open Steam in the first place
17:01 <+bridge_> <chillerdragon> Imagine requiring a proprietary launcher to play an open source game
17:01 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> it's a pretty heavy and slow piece of software
17:02 <+bridge_> <_qey> Many have it opened at all times. Just like some chronically online Discord users.
17:02 <+bridge_> <avolicious> I would favor hwid 😄
17:02 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> many but not all and not necessarily even most
17:02 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Its spoofable, but then we can go for TEE
17:02 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Trusted Execution Environments
17:02 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> HWID is just completely unfeasible and anything that requires security on the client side I consider completely untrustworthy
17:03 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> HWID is just completely unfeasible and anything that requires security on the client side I consider completely unreliable
17:03 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Its reliable if you do it properly
17:03 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Its just not privacy safe
17:03 <+bridge_> <_qey> Not easily transferable either.
17:03 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> HWID would only be for bans, not accounts
17:04 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Yes & for tracking ^^
17:04 <+bridge_> <_qey> That’s creating two separate systems when you could’ve just been using one.
17:04 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> What sort of tracking do you suppose?
17:04 <+bridge_> <patiga> apart from having *any* kind of auth to allow players to gain authenticity, I don't see the real benefit of using the Steam account system in regards to cheating. Steam accounts are free to create and games like cs show how relying on steam accounts does not effectively fight botting
17:04 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Player tracking in general
17:05 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> do you really need behavioural data on tees?
17:05 <+bridge_> <avolicious> 👀
17:05 <+bridge_> <patiga> How do you verify the HWID a client sends? The client could send anything it likes
17:05 <+bridge_> <avolicious> TEE
17:05 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Trusted Execution Environment
17:05 <+bridge_> <patiga> How does that help? The client can still send anything it likes
17:05 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Nope
17:05 <+bridge_> <patiga> How so?
17:06 <+bridge_> <avolicious> It is signed by the TEE
17:06 <+bridge_> <avolicious> The TEE itself is signed by a private key from deen for example
17:06 <+bridge_> <patiga> Oh, you want to sign code for TEE, which includes a key. Inside the TEE the code is decrypted and used to sign the payload that delivers the HWID to the server?
17:08 <+bridge_> <_qey> Again, still better than just tuning your router off and on. I doubt it would be any harder to create a DDNet account if we’re talking in-house solutions.
17:08 <+bridge_> <patiga> ah, does TEE itself also provide keys you can use inside it?
17:09 <+bridge_> <avolicious> No, I would prefer a TEE that can sign specific messages like the HWID thingy. Sadly the TEE cant access any files on the computer (due to security), so its hard to hash the binary for example, but there are some ways you can do this.
17:09 <+bridge_> <avolicious> 
17:09 <+bridge_> <avolicious> If the above is solved, the TEE creates an attestation that is sent to the server, the server then can use the public key to verify it. But DDNet & all other forks would need to provide their public keys
17:09 <+bridge_> <avolicious> You can use the signer within TEE, yes
17:09 <+bridge_> <avolicious> But the private key is within in Enclave, so its kinda hard to "keep" it
17:10 <+bridge_> <patiga> If you cant access files, can you even create a proper HWID from within the TEE? Or is that something each TEE already provides out-of-the-box?
17:11 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Sadly you cant
17:11 <+bridge_> <avolicious> The context TEE operates is very limited
17:11 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Its basically a piece of hardware on your mainboard
17:11 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Its basically a piece of hardware on your cpui
17:11 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Its basically a piece of hardware on your cpu
17:11 <+bridge_> <patiga> honestly I can imagine that account switching with steam might be/get easier than turning your router off and on. The combination of both is ofc easier
17:11 <+bridge_> <avolicious> But you can access the TPM
17:11 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Trusted Platform Module
17:11 <+bridge_> <patiga> but the we get the issue again that the client can simply manipulate the data we send to the TEE to sign
17:12 <+bridge_> <patiga> *the -> then
17:12 <+bridge_> <avolicious> You cant manipulate that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_attestation
17:12 <+bridge_> <avolicious> This is standardized & no input from the user
17:13 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Ofc there are ways to tamper this, there always will be due to hardware design flaws
17:13 <+bridge_> <avolicious> But I doubt that a typical botter will hack his own hardware
17:14 <+bridge_> <avolicious> But again, this will expose users privacy & it might not run on potatoes like teeworlds does now
17:16 <+bridge_> <_qey> On the other hand, requiring any kind of auth in an open-source game with barely 5k peak time online, would kill the user base. However, I still stand in favor of using Steam as a single point of auth and content delivery. Easily pushed updates to everyone — mandatory updates.
17:16 <+bridge_> <patiga> interesting, though it is a bit sparse on any details
17:17 <+bridge_> <avolicious> This TEE is a lot of work tho
17:17 <+bridge_> <avolicious> It adds a lot of complexity
17:17 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Is different on all cpu vendors
17:18 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Apple doesn’t allow any access to their TEE because of security
17:19 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> mandatory updates bad
17:19 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> standardized clients uncool
17:19 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> third party auth bad, though with Steam only slightly bad
17:19 <+bridge_> <_qey> Sorry, I don’t speak open-source.
17:20 <+bridge_> <inv41idu53rn4m3> funny because it's true
17:20 <+bridge_> <patiga> thanks for the interesting references @avolicious. Remote attestation is still kind of a black box to me and I'm not sure about availability, but now I can imagine how such a system might work
17:22 <+bridge_> <_qey> How about a hide’n’seek mode? What would you imagine it be in DDNet? I was tinkering about what kind of new modes could be created, inspiring by other games’ modes.
17:25 <+bridge_> <patiga> I once played hide'n'seek in DDNet, many years back but I had fun :)
17:25 <+bridge_> <patiga> It simply hid your nameplates and the tees were allowed to hide behind bushes and other doodads. the seeker had an instant-kill hammer iirc
17:26 <+bridge_> <_qey> Not feasible this way anymore. You can disable textures or hacked clients can show you the tees.
17:28 <+bridge_> <_qey> I was thinking of stopping sending hidden tee data entirely, moving across teams and whatnot. And use ghosts (basically just stored in-memory positions) as a proxy of some kind.
17:28 <+bridge_> <Assa> @avolicious did you see the issue from heinrich about the community rules?
17:29 <+bridge_> <_qey> When tees are truly in close proximity, only then the tee is revealed. Or, or, if we can make the textures move, we could make them hide on the map, like a waking bush or something.
17:33 <+bridge_> <_qey> Also, how do I get into communities tab? It ain’t much, but I get around 1000 unique daily players.
18:52 <+ChillerDragon> sollyvevo
18:52 <+ChillerDragon> what is chaiscript
18:53 <+bridge_> <teero777> google
18:54 <+ChillerDragon>  an easy to use embedded scripting language for C++.
18:54 <+ChillerDragon> wat it do in tclient?
18:54 <+ChillerDragon> is it ath 2.0?
18:54 <+ChillerDragon> with cheat scripts xd
19:13 <+bridge_> <learath2> I don't really get this, unless the TEE can somehow measure the executable, how could it attest to anything?
19:15 <+bridge_> <learath2> The TPM measures what is ran, but you can't do that with just any old executable, the enclave you run will be measured, and can be attested to safely, however the enclave can't really read anything outside or attest to anything outseide
19:15 <+bridge_> <learath2> The TPM measures what is ran, but you can't do that with just any old executable, the enclave you run will be measured, and can be attested to safely, however the enclave can't really read anything outside or attest to anything outside
19:16 <+bridge_> <learath2> the enclaves seem to interact with the user space through a very strict interface, through which it can't trust anything on the other side, so it can't possibly measure anything outside securely
19:19 <+bridge_> <learath2> As far as I understand this secure enclave stuff is only really good for shipping keys to clients safely. Basically tailormade for DRM
19:49 <+bridge_> <avolicious> Yes, ticket is already opened
21:34 <+bridge_> <alw5> Did you accidently change it back to daily?
22:17 <+bridge_> <gorp_tw> yo we got tracking convo again without my involvement