00:49 < bridge> <teero777> Now that we  know how a DDoS works in detail we can finally fix it :toptri:
01:53 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> new bot dev axaxax
01:55 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @kdaniel what are "network topics"? You mean ddnet / teeworlds related or in general?
01:55 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> trying to improve your ddos tooling? xd
01:55 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> @mr.teetorial what are you building?
02:34 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> https://zillyhuhn.com/cs/.1712709169.png average magnus code snippet
02:36 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> The size of an item is obviously located at the index of some offset .. duh
02:36 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> if that wasnt clear enough here the implementation of Offsets()
02:36 < ws-client> <ChillerDragon> https://zillyhuhn.com/cs/.1712709308.png
06:52 < bridge> <Ewan> awesome
07:42 < bridge> <TsFreddie> dummy has nothing to do with input handling honestly.
07:46 < bridge> <mr.teetorial> Yes but it would maybe make an easy workaround possible. If the left mouse button inputs would not be like 100ms long but instead 1 ms it barely stops dummy copy. Obviously it would be much better if you could really use copy and hammer at the same time but I think that solution would be far more complicated that’s why I’m trying to make smth easier work first. At the moment I’m trying to work with some of chillers tutorials on YouTube. 
07:46 < bridge> <TsFreddie> also I believe some are opposing the idea of expanding dummy ability further due to various reasons. but if you really want to or just curious. dummy inputs are handled directly in the network layer
07:48 < bridge> <TsFreddie> https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/blob/39dd2a552d814e45e92e71cf762437fe52353b9a/src/game/client/gameclient.cpp#L445
07:48 < bridge> <mr.teetorial> But I having struggles because it’s my first time in c++ and originally only coded in Java when I was younger
07:51 < bridge> <TsFreddie> dummy is not a game design where it was just a entity that interact with a player. it is literally a spoofed client connection, so a dummy will send their input independently to the non-dummy player. any desync and delay is likely unsolvable unless you remade the network protocol to pack two players input as one single piece of information.
07:51 < bridge> <TsFreddie> it is very likely that the dummy system is more rudimentary and unreliable than you thought
07:51 < bridge> <Ewan> or you can make the server aware that the character belongs to your player as well and mirror the actions on its side
07:51 < bridge> <TsFreddie> or that
07:52 < bridge> <TsFreddie> server-side dummy is actually prefered by deen at some point
07:52 < bridge> <TsFreddie> server-side dummy is actually preferred by deen at some point
07:52 < bridge> <TsFreddie> iirc
07:58 < bridge> <mr.teetorial> I get that dummy movement in theory is independent but as soon as dummy copy is on the main tee movement inputs are copied each frame into the dummy movement inputs. If the main tee +fire input is now shortened to 1ms  the dummy’s input will be 1 ms long aswell. This would cause dummy copy to stop working for only 1ms. You get what I mean with that? Or is it dumb?
08:01 < bridge> <TsFreddie> on a tick based system, movements are being process exactly the same rate, there is no milliseconds to speak of
08:01 < bridge> <TsFreddie> by all mean look at the code
08:02 < bridge> <TsFreddie> if there is one or two ticks of discrepancy that is definitely a problem worth fixing.
08:04 < bridge> <TsFreddie> If you just want to lower the client input latency. then the best you can do is to lower it as early in the chain as possible (hardware, input handling, fps) so the input can maybe catch a tick earlier on average. but for anything going through the network. an average of 1/25th second of input latency and jittering is expected
08:06 < bridge> <TsFreddie> that's just how multiplayer game works. you could tap into subticks like CS2 does, but that requires a significant amount of protocol redesign, it is definitely doable but expect great difficulty and community push back. again. I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just saying it might not be worth your time to dive this deep into
08:16 < bridge> <Ewan> why is server-side dummy unrealistic?
08:17 < bridge> <TsFreddie> it's not
08:18 < bridge> <TsFreddie> just no one really did it to the point where it is worth shipping
08:18 < bridge> <Ewan> well u can still easily use old system on old clients
08:18 < bridge> <TsFreddie> there were server-side dummy servers. but for ddnet I guess you'd be really good at pushing the idea forward cuz it's generally a community push back thing.
08:19 < bridge> <Ewan> but you can have the server do both and opt into server-side dummy
08:19 < bridge> <Ewan> it's a benefit for both client and server
08:19 < bridge> <TsFreddie> I'm 90% sure if you just made a PR for server-side dummy, I would 100% support it
08:19 < bridge> <TsFreddie> lol
08:19 < bridge> <Ewan> less traffic and your dummy copy inputs and such will be predictable even on lag
08:20 < bridge> <Ewan> perhaps
08:21 < bridge> <TsFreddie> at this point it is all about changes
08:21 < bridge> <Ewan> nobody wants to change anything
08:21 < bridge> <Ewan> heinrich will find some reason to veto a pr i make
08:21 < bridge> <TsFreddie> you'd really need to emulate all the features to disgusting details where it can comfortable for people to say it is worth it
08:21 < bridge> <TsFreddie> the thought of it is already made most people not wanting to develop
08:21 < bridge> <TsFreddie> beside, it is just a lot of effort to spend on for not a lot of features.
08:22 < bridge> <TsFreddie> not that we are pushing features like crazy anyway. but still
08:22 < bridge> <Ewan> most changes are ui stuff im noticing
08:22 < bridge> <TsFreddie> also why am I commenting. I don't even PR
08:22 < bridge> <TsFreddie> that's just because Robyt3 is very passionate about UX and he's probably the most active right now
08:23 < bridge> <Ewan> true
08:23 < bridge> <Ewan> that's kinda my forte generally
08:23 < bridge> <Ewan> but there is no need for it in ddnet
08:23 < bridge> <TsFreddie> even within teeworlds, it is Robyt3 pushing UXs
08:23 < bridge> <Ewan> but there is no need for me to do it in ddnet
08:23 < bridge> <TsFreddie> phew
08:24 < bridge> <Ewan> xd
08:24 < bridge> <TsFreddie> was about to say you can't just tell others to stop working cuz it is useless
08:25 < bridge> <Ewan> yeah
08:25 < bridge> <TsFreddie> tbh, even if I were to make PR, idk what I can do
08:25 < bridge> <TsFreddie> I feel like the thing I care about are already taken care of
08:25 < bridge> <Ewan> ya there aren't a whole lot of ideas worth pursuing that aren't too big or too small 🙃
08:25 < bridge> <Ewan> either add some 5 second thing
08:25 < bridge> <Ewan> or accounts
08:26 < bridge> <TsFreddie> well account system maybe, but that's not just ddnet. infrastructure is a commitment
08:26 < bridge> <Ewan> honestly i wish i saw a little bit more leadership from deen because if he had chosen even just his preferred method we would probably have some kind of accounts system by now
08:26 < bridge> <Ewan> he doesn't even have to do it. just decide
08:26 < bridge> <TsFreddie> someone within the admins really has to push it plus we have to address the additional cost
08:26 < bridge> <Ewan> yeah
08:26 < bridge> <Ewan> additional cost i don't see being a massive issue
08:26 < bridge> <Ewan> you won't need all that much storage
08:27 < bridge> <Ewan> it already shares playtime stats by name
08:27 < bridge> <Ewan> if they have infrastructure for that then putting shit in dbs based on accounts isn't gonna be more demanding than putting shit in a db based on their name
08:31 < bridge> <reitw> hah I start to receive mails https://mas-bandwidth.com/xdp-for-game-programmers/
08:33 < bridge> <Ewan> cool
08:47 < bridge> <TsFreddie> it's probably more than just storage.
08:47 < bridge> <Ewan> why
08:47 < bridge> <Ewan> the auth itself should have very little traffic
08:48 < bridge> <TsFreddie> you need people to properly manage all that. mods are cool and all, but when it comes to accounts, we are holding players information and should be properly handled.
08:49 < bridge> <Ewan> okay but there's no cost in that
08:50 < bridge> <TsFreddie> :owo: it will be if you find out that no one are willing to help
08:50 < bridge> <Ewan> volunteer operation
08:50 < bridge> <Ewan> there will never be funding for this
08:50 < bridge> <Ewan> unless ppl work for free this feature cannot exist
08:50 < bridge> <Ewan> but it should be low maintenance
08:50 < bridge> <Ewan> and we only entrust admins with manual account db changes and password changes and stuff
08:53 < bridge> <TsFreddie> should be
08:53 < bridge> <TsFreddie> honestly, we are just scared
08:53 < bridge> <TsFreddie> at least I would be
08:59 < bridge> <cyberFighter> i think u dont understand him
08:59 < bridge> <TsFreddie> i think too
09:00 < bridge> <cyberFighter> he wants deepfly on dummy for 1 frame or smth?
09:00 < bridge> <TsFreddie> but is 1 frame is really a thing
09:00 < bridge> <TsFreddie> 1 tick maybe
09:00 < bridge> <cyberFighter> 1 tick
09:01 < bridge> <TsFreddie> anyway i'm in the "stop developing dummy features" gang
09:01 < bridge> <cyberFighter> because dummy copy doesnt work during deepfly
09:02 < bridge> <TsFreddie> deepfly is really a weird binding artifact imo
09:03 < bridge> <cyberFighter> i think its because tutorial is on a novice server which usually have teams, so you need a team for practice mode, but tutorial has teams turned off
09:03 < bridge> <Ewan> yes
09:03 < bridge> <TsFreddie> i mean the dummy bind. not deepfly itself ofc
09:04 < bridge> <cyberFighter> so you cant even practice in tutorial
09:04 < bridge> <cyberFighter> lmao
09:05 < bridge> <cyberFighter> ddnet is really a weird game in genersl
09:06 < bridge> <cyberFighter> ddnet is really a weird game in general
09:06 < bridge> <kdaniel> I'm sitting on the good side 🥲
09:07 < bridge> <TsFreddie> i feel like dummy is weirder than ddrace itself
09:07 < bridge> <TsFreddie> i mean the idea is just that you can play with yourself if no one is playing with you. most tech nowadays are just dummy binds gone wild i feel like
09:10 < bridge> <TsFreddie> I think I developed trust issues working with interns all the time
09:10 < bridge> <TsFreddie> company only hires interns and swaps them out
09:10 < bridge> <TsFreddie> at this point I just stop letting them doing anything
09:49 < bridge> <Ewan> damn
09:49 < bridge> <Ewan> hire me as intern
09:49 < bridge> <milkeeycat> and me :owo:
09:55 < bridge> <learath2> This is the hard part. People have extremely tight dummy timings on their weird 5 line binds. You aren't allowed to break any of them. Some binds change dummy settings, those would also need to become part of the input and be applied to specific ticks. Etc. Lots of work just to eliminate some bandwidth use, of which we have plenty
09:56 < bridge> <TsFreddie> bandwidth isn't plenty in CHN i think
09:56 < bridge> <cyberFighter> i hate dummy copy and it desyncing 99% of the time
09:56 < bridge> <TsFreddie> also was it about bandwidth tho
09:57 < bridge> <learath2> I could push mine but I have a feeling it would step on a lot of toes. This sort of flat hierarchy is very nice for maintainance time, very political and tough to navigate for times of improvement
09:58 < bridge> <TsFreddie> @learath2 have I told you that I think you are cool
09:58 < bridge> <cyberFighter> can admins help with getting saves on maps back
09:58 < bridge> <cyberFighter> theres some saves i forgot
09:59 < bridge> <learath2> The other benefit mentioned was predictability under lag. Which is nice but is it nice enough to navigate all the edge cases and recreating what we have?
09:59 < bridge> <cyberFighter> and i dont have them in my pc cuz i switched
09:59 < bridge> <learath2> Yes, create an admin mail ticket for it
09:59 < bridge> <TsFreddie> that's what I believe as well
09:59 < bridge> <cyberFighter> ok thx
10:00 < bridge> <TsFreddie> modal is pretty easy to do I've done it
10:01 < bridge> <TsFreddie> oh wait what.
10:01 < bridge> <TsFreddie> i mixed up work and discord..
10:01 < bridge> <learath2> 😄
10:01 < bridge> <TsFreddie> ignore the modal thing
10:01 < bridge> <TsFreddie> lmao
10:01 < bridge> <learath2> When modals in tw?
10:02 < bridge> <TsFreddie> I can't believe I just typed a message meant for coworkers into discord and automatically did it in english as well
10:27 < bridge> <Ewan> same
10:28 < bridge> <Ewan> tbh i think server side dummy is worth it
10:28 < bridge> <Ewan> to eliminate dummy copy lag at all
10:28 < bridge> <Ewan> but it would break many binds
10:29 < bridge> <Ewan> but im now wondering if we can somehow use the client’s binds on the server on behalf of the player
10:29 < bridge> <Ewan> it would be wild
10:36 < bridge> <TsFreddie> definitely not
10:40 < bridge> <Ewan> yoy’re not thinking creatively enough
10:41 < bridge> <learath2> if you make all dummy related settings part of the input state, you may be able to simulate the old behaviour close enough that most binds don't break
10:41 < bridge> <Ewan> That’s kinda  what i mean
10:45 < bridge> <TsFreddie> but why tho
10:45 < bridge> <TsFreddie> sounds like an awful thing to maintain
11:04 < bridge> <cyberFighter> what would serverside dummy break
11:06 < bridge> <cyberFighter> how would that even work
11:06 < bridge> <cyberFighter> last time i saw serverside dummy was in some weird ddrace server with old multimap
11:07 < bridge> <cyberFighter> and you needed chat commands
11:11 < bridge> <TsFreddie> ideally nothing, but practically everything the binding only players care about
11:11 < bridge> <TsFreddie> you can't possible cover all the weird binding that people found over the years in server side dummy
11:11 < bridge> <TsFreddie> and people will find every weird thing they could do in the new server side dummy too
11:38 < bridge> <TsFreddie> <a:HUH:1178720004980605089>
12:15 < bridge> <chillerdragon> No weekends?
13:32 < bridge> <TsFreddie> no
13:32 < bridge> <TsFreddie> there should be
15:25 < bridge> <milkeeycat> @ryozuki https://suno.com/song/24e1851a-60b7-4158-90ea-72f2464dd665
15:27 < bridge> <ryozuki> xd
15:27 < bridge> <ryozuki> is voice real or ai
15:27 < bridge> <milkeeycat> ai
15:27 < bridge> <milkeeycat> it's a website which creates ai songs
15:27 < bridge> <milkeeycat> it's the website which creates ai songs
15:28 < bridge> <ryozuki> lol
15:34 < bridge> <milkeeycat> https://suno.com/song/0b5a4e29-db87-4dde-804c-ad520e42657e
15:41 < bridge> <milkeeycat> ok can i send last one or it is already spam :justatest:
16:12 < bridge> <TsFreddie> can suno do funk instrumental
16:12 < bridge> <TsFreddie> like for video games
16:13 < bridge> <TsFreddie> would be cool if i can generate loops and samples to construct my own out of
16:51 < bridge> <Ewan> gm
16:52 < bridge> <milkeeycat> gm =]
17:28 < bridge> <nidardo> Can someone make a feature for the new freeze bar so that it can be set to the old stars. just like the old mouse mode / old gun position. would be nice ❤️
17:29 < bridge> <milkeeycat> why not use old client?
17:30 < bridge> <gotie4928> because then he couldnt use the new cool features?
18:12 < bridge> <Ewan> good morning
18:12 < bridge> <Ewan> agree
18:12 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> won't fix, used in some software from 1990 that runs somewhere in production xd
18:22 < bridge> <Ewan> i think someone i met at a meetup is offering to like
18:22 < bridge> <Ewan> pay for a professional headshot for me
18:22 < bridge> <Ewan> which is very morally challenging
18:23 < bridge> <Ewan> cuz i don't want to take their money but also how am i gonna turn something like that down
18:25 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> in other words: they know they abuse you and try desperately to not make it sound like they are the bad ones
18:27 < bridge> <learath2> "No thank you" usually works
18:27 < bridge> <Ewan> well
18:27 < bridge> <Ewan> i don't mean how as in i want to turn it down
18:27 < bridge> <Ewan> i mean it would just be stupid to reject something like that
18:27 < bridge> <Ewan> it's not a small deal
18:27 < bridge> <Ewan> im just torn here
18:27 < bridge> <Ewan> bcus i don't really know the guy and he gives off MLM/mormon vibes (unfortunately i think many of you won't really get that)
18:27 < bridge> <Ewan> so maybe he will want me to owe him something in the future
18:29 < bridge> <learath2> Do I misunderstand? Is getting a photo taken a big deal?
18:29 < bridge> <Ewan> it's expensive from a professional
18:30 < bridge> <Ewan> and career wise it is a big deal (from what i hear)
18:30 < bridge> <Ewan> employers are not gonna click ur profile on whichever site if u don't even have a photo
18:32 < bridge> <learath2> How expensive is it? I don't know US prices but in Italy and Turkey it's not too bad to get a professional headshot
18:37 < bridge> <Ewan> it's entirely likely i don't know how much it costs
18:37 < bridge> <Ewan> and just assumed it was more
18:38 < bridge> <Ewan> but i feel like a proper photographer that u work with 1 on 1 is gonna have insights on like, how to frame you the best
18:38 < bridge> <Ewan> you're not only paying for 5 minutes but for planning and their professional judgement
18:38 < bridge> <learath2> I'm guessing it's more of an artistic thing rather than a biometric passport photo 😄
18:39 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> they do both in my photo store
18:39 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> for same price
18:39 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> xd
18:39 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> didn't get me a nice job tho
18:39 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> 
18:39 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> so was a waste of money 😏
18:40 < bridge> <Ewan> well
18:41 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> so how expensive is it for you
18:41 < bridge> <Ewan> my mom and one of her employees say don't do it
18:41 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> how much will you owe this random guy
18:41 < bridge> <learath2> I heard you dont even put headshots on resumes in germany
18:43 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> mh i'd say you do, but maybe that's some next level anti racist thing
18:43 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> don't judge on look etc
18:43 < bridge> <Ewan> because in the U.S. you cannot hire based on looks at all so i guess if they even subconsciously associate my face with my application then it will have to go in the bin
18:43 < bridge> <Ewan> also companies here tend not to prefer white men
18:46 < bridge> <Ewan> i went to the photography page at my local department store and i can't find a quote without scheduling an appointment
18:46 < bridge> <Ewan> and i don't really have anyone i can ask
18:46 < bridge> <Ewan> but yes it's probably way cheaper than i thought 😁
18:54 < bridge> <0xdeen> Back when I applied to German companies around 2015 the guides said to put your photo in, but I never did, and no company seemed to care.
20:06 < bridge> <peter0x44> it sounds like it is just asking for discrimination
20:07 < bridge> <peter0x44> at least to me the resume is never supposed to contain any mention of a "protected characteristic" in an explicit way
20:08 < bridge> <peter0x44> like... race, etc
20:09 < bridge> <peter0x44> yeah this is how it should be... there is no value in an employer seeing that info
21:13 < bridge> <Ewan> yeah
21:13 < bridge> <Ewan> doesn't matter cuz they're gonna think all the same stuff during the interview
21:17 < bridge> <Ewan> the photo would not go on the resume though
21:22 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> ah right u like teenager
21:22 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> rip to you
21:22 < bridge> <Ewan> i never had it in high school
21:22 < bridge> <Ewan> i think i have developed it by staying at home doing nothing
21:22 < bridge> <Ewan> i eat fine and wash my face so i think i just gotta wait until im older/am leaving the house more often
21:27 < bridge> <Ewan> i hear that the diet thing is mostly a myth
21:27 < bridge> <Ewan> i don't rly have genetics for it
21:27 < bridge> <Ewan> just inactive lifestyle
21:28 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> well as soon as i eat potato chips my skin reacts to it ^^
21:28 < bridge> <Ewan> dang
21:28 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> but yeah depends on the person ofc
21:28 < bridge> <Ewan> fragile european genetics not used to eating ungodly amounts of processed food like american
21:28 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> lmao