01:31 < bridge> where is the dynamic part of the website ? 01:31 < bridge> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/1159996490211672204/image.png?ex=65330dea&is=652098ea&hm=2249d9d21f8debaba970fa4fe1e56c07c08f50530d1c6f9a1afe1bab23fc54de& 02:02 < bridge> https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet-scripts/tree/master 02:05 < bridge> Learath2 was pretty clear about this. We won't consider adding the new categories without prior discussion. 03:07 < bridge> Hm, from who? Coz it seemed pretty clear to me that it was accepted. Pipou, Blurry and VéNa already have done all the work for it, the only thing missing is the code side 03:21 < bridge> Hm, from who? Coz it seemed pretty clear to me that it was accepted. Pipou, Nehr and VéNa already have done all the work for it, the only thing missing is the code side 06:51 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> @ryozuki found another rusthead in the wild 06:51 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> cursor is an entire moment to say "RUST IS THE BEST PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE" and the red dot is where he says "blazingly" 06:51 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/1160076788131692674/image.png?ex=653358b3&is=6520e3b3&hm=243cf2d955420c5113869b98f6123f4d3069a48a4e1e64e908514c11a55f33aa& 06:54 < bridge> the proper term is rustacean last i heard 06:54 < bridge> and they are not hard to find 06:56 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> yeah but that involves me caring 06:59 < bridge> how does the proper term for something rely on you caring 08:22 < bridge> I still hate rust 08:37 < bridge> hi fred 09:13 < bridge> u seem to care alot tho since u tell me always 09:13 < bridge> :justatest: 09:33 < bridge> :f3: 09:33 < bridge> good morning ryozuki 09:33 < bridge> how are you on this fine evening 10:06 < bridge> Its 11am :kek: 10:07 < bridge> quite good 10:07 < bridge> and u 10:07 < bridge> its morning tho 10:07 < bridge> im closer to utc 10:07 < bridge> the truth 10:07 < bridge> I disagree 10:07 < bridge> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/1160126207883497492/IMG_3689.png?ex=653386ba&is=652111ba&hm=b3002f34d7be0258911f40aa44cb2ec58d85950bccd5dae2b0bba2fcf33521c2& 10:07 < bridge> doing alright 10:07 < bridge> apple user smh 10:07 < bridge> what else 10:08 < bridge> :owo: 10:08 < bridge> i dislike google 10:08 < bridge> apple is the lesser of two evils 10:09 < bridge> https://tenor.com/view/doubt-press-x-la-noire-meme-x-button-gif-19259237 10:09 < bridge> https://tenor.com/view/doubt-press-x-la-noire-meme-x-button-gif-19259237 10:10 < bridge> I’m doubting your doubt rn 10:11 < bridge> politics aside i like the iphone better. it’s just cool 10:12 < bridge> awesome build quality and feel 10:12 < bridge> runs mostly native software 10:12 < bridge> ecosystem etc 10:12 < bridge> i’ve used both and it’s the better experience imo 10:14 < bridge> not really thinking about you when I said that 10:15 < bridge> i was not talking about u 10:15 < bridge> ah 10:15 < bridge> my apology :owo: 10:17 < bridge> 10:24 < bridge> nothing worked because of .sort() in my code :pepeW: 10:25 < bridge> the funny thing is it has to compare as <=, if i remove = it will work on website but not in node, if i keep it it doesnt work in firefox but works in node 10:29 < bridge> :owo: 11:00 < bridge> easiest fix in my life :pepeW: 11:00 < bridge> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/1160139653656092692/image.png?ex=6533933f&is=65211e3f&hm=fed841d908623d95627374d9e8b656e4a398b3607fd17225baef48967a6222b2& 11:18 < bridge> Many brands make android phones, all have different build quality and feel 11:18 < bridge> i mean 3rd looks like the correct one 11:19 < bridge> why the hell did it even work before 😭 11:19 < bridge> This is such a js moment wtf 11:19 < bridge> returning 0 is for when they equal 11:20 < bridge> but on the first 2 u dont return 0 never, so if a <= b it returns 1 11:20 < bridge> but if b <= a it returns 1 11:20 < bridge> if a == b 11:20 < bridge> it returns 1 11:20 < bridge> if b == a 11:20 < bridge> it returns 1 11:20 < bridge> do u see the bug 11:21 < bridge> or well idk, i need a coffee 11:21 < bridge> @learath2 did u watch the anime baki 11:21 < bridge> It's actually allowed in some sorting algorithms, but I bet in js you require strict weak ordering 11:22 < bridge> is js sort stable? 11:22 < bridge> Not yet, it's on my list of things to watch sometime after jjk 11:22 < bridge> its a rly bizarre anime 11:22 < bridge> of strong men using bare first techniques fighting against strong men using whathever cheat they can 11:22 < bridge> xd 11:23 < bridge> well thats for the netflix show 11:23 < bridge> Ah js has even stricter requirements on the comparefn 11:24 < bridge> Yes 11:28 < bridge> @robyt3 refactoring the envelope points is gonna be a lot more work than i thought. So I want to make sure the new classes look decent before I actually do it 😄 What do you think of the following classes? They store the data in the normal mapitems to allow implementing the envelope accessor. 11:28 < bridge> ```c++ 11:28 < bridge> class CCurveInfo 11:28 < bridge> { 11:28 < bridge> enum class EType 11:28 < bridge> { 11:28 < bridge> LINEAR, 11:28 < bridge> STEP, 11:28 < bridge> } m_Type; 11:28 < bridge> 11:28 < bridge> vec2 GetBezierTangentOffsetStart() const; 11:28 < bridge> void SetBezierTangentOffsetStart(vec2 TangentOffset); 11:28 < bridge> 11:28 < bridge> vec2 GetBezierTangentOffsetEnd() const; 11:28 < bridge> void SetBezierTangentOffsetEnd(vec2 TangentOffset); 11:28 < bridge> 11:28 < bridge> private: 11:28 < bridge> CEnvPointBezier m_BezierInfo; 11:28 < bridge> }; 11:28 < bridge> 11:28 < bridge> struct CTransform 11:28 < bridge> { 11:28 < bridge> float OffsetX; 11:28 < bridge> float OffsetY; 11:28 < bridge> float Rotation; 11:28 < bridge> }; 11:28 < bridge> 11:28 < bridge> class CEnvelopePoint 11:29 < bridge> { 11:29 < bridge> public: 11:29 < bridge> float GetTime() const; 11:35 < bridge> So the idea is to add a wrapper class that makes access to the different kinds of envelope point values easier, hence the different getters and setters? 11:35 < bridge> I think we more or less settled on no `Get` prefix for getters 11:35 < bridge> `CCurveType::m_Type` seems redundant since we already have constants in `mapitems.h` 11:48 < bridge> Usually all things I search for only yield a few results. It’s not that big. Searching the code for keywords works super well 11:48 < bridge> So it would be `CEnvelopePoint::Time` and `CEnvelopePoint::SetTime`? 11:48 < bridge> yeah 11:50 < bridge> I added them for the constructors. Since `CCurveInfo(EType Type)` is a bit nicer than `CCurveInfo(int Type)`, but that doesnt really matter. Or I can also make them a seperate enum in mapitems and then use that 11:51 < bridge> Probably easier to use `int Type` with a comment for now, instead of changing `mapitems.h` 12:11 < bridge> Might be nice to go through the code sometime and use named scoped enums for many of these things 14:09 < bridge> Oops, wrong repo 15:46 < bridge> you could also do something like `(a, b) => { return b.frequency - a.frequency; }` because only the sign matters 15:51 < bridge> I am a simple man. If the docs say it has to return -1, 0 or 1. I make it to return those values 15:52 < bridge> And hope it doesn't break one day :justatest: 16:05 < bridge> where da hell can i find code which is related to drawing stuff from demo 16:09 < bridge> idk if i recommend that if they are floats 16:10 < bridge> but i guess they arent xd 16:10 < bridge> but again u have no types so ur never sure 16:10 < bridge> safe coding in js requires millions of typeof checks 16:10 < bridge> kek 16:12 < bridge> js wasnt made for safe coding :justatest: 16:12 < bridge> @learath2 @heinrich5991 https://orlp.net/blog/subtraction-is-functionally-complete/ 16:12 < bridge> > To be precise, IEEE-754 floating point subtraction is functionally complete. That means you can construct any binary circuit using nothing but floating point subtraction. 16:12 < bridge> xd 16:12 < bridge> ok i meant "defensive programming" 16:13 < bridge> https://twitter.com/WinfieldSmart/status/1710658680327209205 16:13 < bridge> some people are definitly evil 16:14 < bridge> https://x.com/WinfieldSmart/status/1710658680327209205?s=20 16:14 < bridge> > Billionaire property developer Tim Gurner said in September that "We need to see unemployment rise. We need it to rise 40-50%. We need to see pain in the economy. We need to remind people that they work for the employer, not the other way around." 16:14 < bridge> > Defensive programming is a technique that helps programmers to write programs that are more resistant to bugs and vulnerabilities. These techniques are actually a set of programming guidelines and habits that will immeasurably improve your comprehension, quality and predictability. 16:15 < bridge> :justatest: 16:15 < bridge> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_programming 16:17 < bridge> bugs and vulnerabilities in ts? pff, `as any` is the safest thing in the world :owo: 16:23 < bridge> :owo: 16:40 < bridge> :poggers2: 16:55 < bridge> nice pfp 17:00 < bridge> i was expecting some weird stuff there, but no, rather simple use of sign bit 17:00 < bridge> though the assembly code at the end is hilarious 😄 17:08 < bridge> xd 18:21 < bridge> :owo: 18:49 < bridge> @neben holly cow, how big essay are you writing 18:50 < bridge> Can I get the ``dev`` role if I am a developer of a separate client and server type? Or is it mandatory to make a PR? 18:55 < bridge> Hey, 18:55 < bridge> When is the discussion planned? Also, is it planned to be done with Pipou? 18:55 < bridge> I understand that you guys have to be the one to open the doors when it comes about new features, but as a testing leader, an experienced player and mapper, a hard-worker, his opinion is as important. I don't think that you guys have the rights to make such a WIP wait, especially when all the big parts have already been done. You just have to agree or disagree, as most of the discussion already have been covered with all the testers and more. 18:56 < bridge> the small but thought one 19:01 < bridge> My apologies, I wasn't aware that the administrators responsible for overseeing the entire infrastructure are not involved in your decision-making process. Certainly, I will do what is necessary. 19:04 < bridge> As for the discussion, We been waiting for over Pipou to speak up, since all the planning and discussions weren't done exclusively in the internal channels, but somewhere else. 19:05 < bridge> I understand you, but this is not meaningful as you could just allow those changes to be done without a prior discussion, if the charge is too big. Trust the actual people that worked on it. 19:09 < bridge> These changes are more than just minor adjustments. You're introducing two whole new categories, which seem to cater to a relatively niche audience. 19:11 < bridge> u think i don't know it? 19:11 < bridge> Introducing these new categories at this point will have significant long-term repercussions. 19:15 < bridge> Introducing these new categories -as is- will have significant long-term repercussions. 19:15 < bridge> I mean, from what I've heard, it has been done in the testing channel in messages where you were pinged. Also, I would just take every message and make a synthesis of the whole discussion with chatgpt, it's not like he hasn't done most of the work already. 19:16 < bridge> It is also available in #📌info 19:20 < bridge> Such a thing has been done already, with the new hammer feature where you can hold in freeze. Heinrich developed it and released it without discussing it with the testers and players. 19:20 < bridge> Okey, let's just go back for a moment. What's ddnet testing to you? 19:21 < bridge> Or rather, what exactly is the purpose of testing here on ddnet? 19:21 < bridge> People trusted for their opinion about mapping, playing, and game design 19:22 < bridge> Also I'd rather not have this discussion since it's taking time on what we actually want 19:22 < bridge> Unless your claim is no android device has comparable build quality, yes that's what your statement would imply 19:24 < bridge> Allowing changes on the game, in the maps section 19:25 < bridge> Allow or disallow changes on the game, in the maps section, by accepting or declining new maps 19:26 < bridge> That is not how we envisioned testing, and those things are far beyond the scope of duties we entrusted to this group of testers (and all previous tester groups actually). Therein lies the concern. It's like your local police making their own laws. 19:27 < bridge> Not like we aren't open to change, we are just saying it needs proper discussion with not just testers 19:28 < bridge> Indeed, that's the core problem we're currently working to address, rather than engaging in a discussion, we're simply being told what to do. "From what I've heard" is telling me how out of touch all people seem in our testing staff. 19:29 < bridge> You never actually had a word about it tho, since you never said anything about maps being released, so you entrusted those people opinions 19:29 < bridge> You edited that message btw. They are free to accept and decline whatever they want and use whatever means necessary to facilitate that. What maps get released is technically solely up to Pipou. That's the scope of the testing team. Deciding what maps get released 19:30 < bridge> I agree everyone's opinion is important, but tbh but this logic doesnt apply since developers kinda do what they want on the game. Maps have been destroyed, 2 of Pipou's maps, or Pulsars maps, because of changes they made. 19:30 < bridge> What is not solely up to them is to just introduce completely new points structures, seasonal maps, new categories. These kinds of larger changes we'd like to have input on if you'll allow us that courtesy 19:32 < bridge> I don't think so, since you have the last word about it, and you actually choose new features by yourselves without discussing with others important opinions. Indeed, this is the core of the problem, since you only trust admin's opinions, admins that mostly dont even play the game anymore 19:33 < bridge> You're doing the exact same. Your last sentence here implies that developers responsible for maintaining the game client are deliberately causing issues with people's maps, which is obviously not the case. 19:36 < bridge> > admins that mostly dont even play the game anymore 19:36 < bridge> This also has no relevancy and is in fact false. 19:36 < bridge> I agree, it's not solely up to them. Thats why I've been asking for more transparency about the needed discussion 19:37 < bridge> I'm saying that they taking important decisions without prior discussions. 19:37 < bridge> I'm saying that they're taking important decisions without prior discussions. 19:37 < bridge> I don't get what relevance this has. The only way I can make any sense of it is if you are implying we should just not do anything and replace ourselves with the testers 19:39 < bridge> It is relevant, since they dont actually play the maps that need to be move in the new categories 19:40 < bridge> It is relevant, since they dont actually play the maps that need to be move in the new categories, and understand in a tangible way why it is important to have them, as they might not have a gamer perspective 19:42 < bridge> This is entirely irrelevant to the issue we're attempting to address. 19:42 < bridge> It is relevant that testers opinions, especially the lead tester, are important too in the decision making process 19:43 < bridge> What part of the decision making process. The process of picking maps is entirely up to the testing leader. We don't even impose any criteria, exactly because none of us claim to have great judgement of what makes a good map 19:44 < bridge> The actual issue, is the work being postponed because the lead tester is not as much entrusted as admins. Also we know this isnt only about people's authority, we know Pipou, and its not just a lead tester 19:44 < bridge> Just because you delegate some part of management to a team doesn't make that team the sole authority on everything 19:44 < bridge> The actual issue, is the work being postponed because the lead tester is not as much entrusted as admins. Also we know this isnt only about people's authority, we know Pipou, and he's not just a lead tester 19:45 < bridge> Work is not being postponed. We'd like to hear from your beloved testing leader about his proposed changes and why he thinks they are the way to go. It's not an insane ask you know 19:47 < bridge> It's just not in the scope of his duties to decide that alone, period. It's not a very complex system. If he thinks we are inept, he should contact us and let us know. Not just start making decisions on his own 19:47 < bridge> It appears to be the case because my sanity is slowly eroding. 19:49 < bridge> I know exactly the issue at hand here. Perks of being here for an entire decade I still remember the 2 testing teams of the past that just started deciding things on their own 19:49 < bridge> well i don't know how you could possibly do any better than apple at it, i'm just saying the build quality is great & there are androids out there with good quality too (modern samsungs with the glass are nice) but that's not my point 19:49 < bridge> it's just one of the factors that makes me like the iphone better 19:49 < bridge> android unrelated 19:49 < bridge> FWIW. I'm even okay with the changes. I'm not okay with it not being discussed with us at all 19:49 < bridge> It's akin to constantly reiterating oneself, only to have others persistently ignore or fail to comprehend the message. 19:50 < bridge> So you are saying they can't do better than apple but they can? 19:50 < bridge> it's not as good imo 19:50 < bridge> there are little bits of plastic on samsungs still 19:50 < bridge> last i had one 19:50 < bridge> Sorry to erode you sanity murpi by questioning the actual decision making process. 19:51 < bridge> Though I do get your point, apple does have good build quality most of the time 19:51 < bridge> i mean there's not a single aspect of my phone's build that i wish the apple designers had done differently 19:51 < bridge> The samsung in my hand is completely glass and metal, the one I had before this one was also completely glass and metal and the one before that 19:51 < bridge> i guess mine has it cuz it's the z fold 19:51 < bridge> repairability? 19:52 < bridge> insurance/warranty 19:52 < bridge> There was no decision making process here. That is the only issue. Decisions were made, then we were told 19:52 < bridge> Aint it an open source game? Devs do the same thing 19:52 < bridge> I mean the thing bends. I'd love to see apple make bending glass. It's a material science issue 19:52 < bridge> yeah 19:52 < bridge> i don't think samsung is making the glass tho 19:53 < bridge> They make a new feature, and then make a pr 19:53 < bridge> the screens u have a point on tho since last i heard apple uses samsung screens 19:53 < bridge> That goes both ways. If you don't like the way we operate, all the code is free, you can jost your own paradise today 19:53 < bridge> That goes both ways. If you don't like the way we operate, all the code is free, you can host your own paradise today 19:54 < bridge> Everyone and their mothers use samsung, lg or sony panels on all good screens 19:54 < bridge> Thats true, but we're fighting for something we love. It's not like we're want to divide everyone. 19:54 < bridge> yeah 19:54 < bridge> Thats true, but we're fighting for something we love. It's not like we want to divide everyone. 19:54 < bridge> Conceptionally, those two new categories would be a lot more ...convenient? ...fitting? on an entirely different network. 19:55 < bridge> And again your voice will be more important there murpi, than Pipou's one. I don't think admins should have the last word 19:56 < bridge> Okay now you are saying what you really mean. No need to skirt around it 19:56 < bridge> if they really want to discuss about it, they have to go on themselves and check what has been told 19:56 < bridge> what's even going on here 19:57 < bridge> saturday's drama 19:57 < bridge> 🍿 19:57 < bridge> You think Pipou should be the one to make the decisions. If Pipou thinks he should have more say in things, he should contact us, not have random people send us messages in his behest 19:58 < bridge> does ddnet have some code docs? :justatest: 19:58 < bridge> No I think everyone should be able to make decisions, and then it'd equally be approved by others 19:58 < bridge> @ryozuki was documenting a bit, but I think he gave up on it, too complex 19:58 < bridge> admins voice is overrated 19:58 < bridge> does ddnet have some code docs? :justatest: (sorry to interrupt drama) 19:59 < bridge> also I'm not a random Learath, i may have been played more time on this game than you 19:59 < bridge> That holds true when people align with my viewpoint. The concept of a 'more significant voice' does not apply here. 19:59 < bridge> Though you have been here for more years 19:59 < bridge> where can i find it? 20:00 < bridge> I don't understand 20:00 < bridge> Is that it? You find us to be too bad at the game to make decisions? I have thousands of hours too, I'm just not very good. 20:00 < bridge> I don't understand, the concept applies 20:00 < bridge> skill issue 20:01 < bridge> It means that my voice is also important, since I'm also very involved in the game 20:01 < bridge> Pipou doesn't have the strength anymore to discuss, because this is just a warfield everytime 20:02 < bridge> You can find a bit on the wiki along with external resources linked there, 20:02 < bridge> You can find a bit on the wiki along with the external resources linked there, 20:03 < bridge> Stop mincing your words. The last thing you care about is equal voices. You want your guys voice above ours, which is fine, you are entitled to your opinion, just not allowed to mask it as some quest for fairness. 20:03 < bridge> Okay, now you're saying what you really meant too 20:04 < bridge> Because thats absolutely not what I want tho 20:05 < bridge> I've been completely clear in what I'm saying. Some of the latest changes are beyond the scope of duties of the testing team, period. I'm saying nothing more nothing less 20:05 < bridge> @neben I haven't presented a fact here, but rather expressed an opinion. If others align with my viewpoint here, it holds some merit. 20:06 < bridge> Honestly I'm really getting tired of all this useless unecessary conflict with testing teams every single time 20:06 < bridge> And tbh, I don't even understand how you could even imply that? Like bro you're just being mean for nothing. You don't know me, and I just fight for something important to me. The game is at the hands of the admins and you can't deny that. 20:06 < bridge> Also if you really think thats what I want, just put Pipou admin, and he'll have an equal voice to yours. As your system works. 20:07 < bridge> It's not a binary world, this is a game with its universe, hear people voices, not only because of their ranks 20:07 < bridge> It's not a binary world, this is a game with its universe, hear people voices, not only because of their authority 20:07 < bridge> Not like we ever hid the fact that we make the final decision on everything. You are making it sound like this is something new 20:07 < bridge> Im contesting that. 20:08 < bridge> If you want that to change or if you want Pipou to be an admin aswell that is another discussion. But currently the changes they decided on are beyond the scope of their task, and we'd like to just hear something about it 20:08 < bridge> In no other context is this ever okay. If you don't agree with some structure you don't get to just start acting outside it 20:09 < bridge> Are you saying that someone opinion that dont align with yours has less merit ? 20:10 < bridge> For the record, I would actually have been completely okay with having pipou be an admin 20:10 < bridge> No, i'm saying the exact opposite. 20:11 < bridge> I respect that 20:12 < bridge> dont worry guys, i already found it :owo: 20:12 < bridge> The scope should be bigger. 20:13 < bridge> If i don't agree with the structure, I ask for it, like I'm doing 20:13 < bridge> I'd love to talk about that with our testing leader, when he is back around 20:13 < bridge> when can we talk about me becoming an admin? :thonk: 20:14 < bridge> @murpi one day... ull take that :justatest: back 20:15 < bridge> This is also not true for Learath since he just put a period very fast on the discussion 20:15 < bridge> Can I be an admin 20:15 < bridge> I’ll make ddnet great again 20:15 < bridge> Uhm... remember the swap hook exploit? 20:15 < bridge> You asked for it. No one did before this, you expect us to be clairvoyant aswell? 20:16 < bridge> I'd probably have to be more precise on that since we've had so many swap exploits 😬 20:17 < bridge> This is so untrue, as you said so much people have complained and this is not for nothing, it means there is an actual problem whatever it is 20:17 < bridge> I'd probably have to be more precise since we've had so many swap exploits 😬 20:17 < bridge> I'm not saying my opinion has more merit than yours. (Eventhough you are saying yours has more merit than mine). I'm just saying due to the way ddnet is set up currently. Technically the only person with any right to make any decision is deen. He delegated that job to a team of admins. We all delegated the map approval part of it to the testing team 20:17 < bridge> Go on. Transparency is welcomed. 20:17 < bridge> we need a discussion channel. this is spam. 20:17 < bridge> sh 20:18 < bridge> You can ask Pipou himself. I don't like sharing other peoples secrets. 20:18 < bridge> It's not an extremely confusing structure, nor is it very fair, but it is how things currently are 20:19 < bridge> we also spam here about deving though :justatest: 20:19 < bridge> No one complained to us. The only time anyone from the testing team ever contacted me is to see if they could either yoink Pipou's spot or if they could become co-testing lead 20:21 < bridge> There is no huge testing complaints building up over years, it's a fantasy situation. You can't expect anyone to know things they aren't told. If you have a problem, you talk, like you are doing here. Talking about it with your friends in secret dm groups we are not in is not enough 20:22 < bridge> Don't worry I'm not saying my opinion matters more than yours, in fact that is the opposite. 20:22 < bridge> I understand the actual structure about decision making process, and I contest a part of it which is the last word about any changes being done. Because in the end, it means others voice dont matter, if you don't agree. 20:23 < bridge> We don't have one, it'll havw yo do for tonight 20:23 < bridge> We don't have one, it'll have to do for tonight 20:23 < bridge> k 20:25 < bridge> If everyone gets to make decisions then there is chaos. Not like any single one of us can make any decisions on our own either. The last word is not any single persons ever. Even in development, you won't ever see any of us merging our own PRs. Nor will you see outside PRs ever merged without extensive discussion. Whatever feature you hate the most: go take a look at it's PR, it'll have either dozens of comments in github or hours of discussions i 20:26 < bridge> I also think that features developed by admins shouldn't only be discussed with admins. 20:27 < bridge> All PRs are public. There is no secret pipeline everything is submitted to the same place and goes through the same RC process 20:27 < bridge> WHERE ARE MY STARS 20:28 < bridge> Yes of course, to a dark place most of the players dont even come in 20:28 < bridge> I partially agree but this is not convenient, no one is 100% available to see that a new pr has been done and is game changing 20:28 < bridge> Quick thought experiment for you. Let's say heinrich's hammer change is happening right now. Of the 5 admins, 3 want it in, 2 don't care. You don't want it, Konsti doesn't want it. The rest of the community didn't raise any opinion. What happens? 20:29 < bridge> Do we merge or not? 20:29 < bridge> We ask for more opinions in announcements for example 20:30 < bridge> Not my fault if people don't want to involve themselves in the process. We have 2-3 week RCs where it's trivial to review changes just by downloading the new client. We take months on github and discord. I'm not sure how to make it more accessible 20:31 < bridge> write me in dm everty change u want to make. itd be accessible enough for me 20:31 < bridge> Okay opinions came out, 60 people voted, 50 are okay with it but are not very well known players. 10 don't like it, but they are top racers. What happens? 20:31 < bridge> You're doing a very good job with the new rc system, but there's no pr for pipou's work its just admins 20:32 < bridge> ...What 20:32 < bridge> Okay hypothetically say we open all the gameplay decisions to a similar RC and PR process, would you be okay with decisions that come out of that? I doubt it because the same system birthed many of the features you don't like 20:33 < bridge> S/gameplay/management/ 20:34 < bridge> If people don't involve themselves in decisions it'll still be the same handful of people deciding things is what I'm trying to get at 20:34 < bridge> It's not just binary, the hammer is way more game-changing than the new categoriess 20:34 < bridge> I dont think that its not accessible enough, but for non-developers this whole proccess might be a bit intimidating/unkown. Im not saying it should be changed, but maybe there should be an explanation of how to get involved if there is not already. 20:36 < bridge> A week or so ago someone had a decent idea of making a post update poll/forum of sorts on discord, that might help a bit but it'll still be an extremely biased sample of people that probably already cared enough to participate in the RC testing 20:36 < bridge> this is not enough to judge a new feature 20:36 < bridge> It's worth trying imo, but if people don't participate it'll still be us who decides things. I can't force people to care 20:37 < bridge> So when can we make changes? 20:37 < bridge> Maybe you need more admins. With more diversity of experience and players 20:37 < bridge> Now this is a good suggestion that I've been thinking actively about 20:37 < bridge> me. me. meeee 20:37 < bridge> Maybe you need more admins. With more diversity of experience and players, mappers 20:38 < bridge> I trust the people who are spending their time to contribute and even tho i do not agree with some changes, thats the way this project is being developed. And if a group of players is thinking otherwise, they are free to create another project 20:38 < bridge> Am I not good enough? :( 20:38 < bridge> Or maybe an expansion of the role of testing leader. But these need to be discussed. I can't make decisions on my own. I know how undemocratic it is to have us make all the decisions but internally you can be sure that there is not a single decision that doesn't go through atleast 2 people 20:39 < bridge> Apparently not. Have you tried getting more r1s? 20:39 < bridge> Ra...rank ones? I.. I can't rank one with high ping :( 20:40 < bridge> thats exactly that, he actively contributed, yet is put aside although being an important contributer 20:40 < bridge> Actually you are probably the only admin that the racers like, and maybe snail because he used to be insane 😄 20:41 < bridge> To contribute, we need to talk. This is all we ask for. It's seriously not as big an issue as whoever you heard it from 20:42 < bridge> I used to love you before you weirdly implied stuffs, which you shouldn't even 20:42 < bridge> Also we need to keep playing together. I need more points so I can also be allowed an opinion on this game I spent half of my life on to contribute to 20:42 < bridge> Speaking of THE hammer change. It’s human nature not to realize the true value of something, unless they lose it. I've talked to so many people about it, they can't even imagine playing without it 20:43 < bridge> Same goes for the freezebar, it's such a good upgrade compared to the stars. 20:44 < bridge> I actually like all the admins, and always defended them in front of Pipou and others. I'm very involved with how things are structured on this game, this is why i wanted to enhance a discussion that almost instantly become a warfield, and finished by a period of an admin 20:45 < bridge> I actually like all the admins, and always defended them in front of Pipou and others. I'm very involved with how things are structured on this game, this is why i wanted to enhance a discussion that almost instantly became a warfield, and finished by a period of an admin 20:45 < bridge> Can you please point out the "period"? Because I'm sure there is some misunderstanding. The only period I put was when explaining how things CURRENTLY work 20:45 < bridge> Weeell, since you were so busy with studies, I kinda stopped asking you. :feelsbadman: 20:46 < bridge> I'm done now :Celebrate: We can go back to having fun 20:46 < bridge> well that is a confusing message, thats why 20:48 < bridge> Let me better clarify that specific message. As things currently stand, there is a certain group of tasks that are delegated to the testing team. Some of the changes they want are not part of any of the tasks given, so must be discussed further 20:49 < bridge> Me is good variant :troll: 20:49 < bridge> Not contesting it, taking it as an example of a BIG change that has been done without enough opinions, clearly 20:49 < bridge> In contrast some of the other changes are within their sole discretion and don't need to be discussed with anyone else. The new testing structure, the new mapping rules. It's all within what the testing leader role entails. The testing leader is given extreme liberty in testing. They are free to run it however they like 20:51 < bridge> He can test maps according to whatever criteria he thinks is appropriate, with as many or as little people as he likes in whatever order he likes 20:51 < bridge> @learath2 Do you remember the PR count with "the" hammer change? 20:52 < bridge> If he told us he wanted to release all short maps under the already existing race category that's completely within his rights (even though we'd love to hear about such a drastic change in map length it is still completely up to him) 20:53 < bridge> And I think that their opinion as really good mappers and game designer, is important 20:53 < bridge> It's true its called testing, but it's also managing the whole mapping section, their opinion about categories is important 20:53 < bridge> Ah it's #1922 I think 20:53 < bridge> https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/pull/1922 20:53 < bridge> maybe just give by default the admin role to the testing leader 20:54 < bridge> And we agree that their expertise in that is sooo important that they get to do testing however they like, no questions asked, do you ever see us stop a map release or force one? 20:55 < bridge> No thats why I'm saying you already entrust them in managing maps, which include categories 20:56 < bridge> also there is a problem of connexion between testers and admins, putting the testing leader admin might be a fix 20:56 < bridge> That seems to be where we disagree. We don't believe that's part of what we define as "testing". It's a wider change 20:58 < bridge> The previous testing leader was an admin and it was indeed fairly frictionless. It might be a good idea to ensure all new testing leads will be admins aswell 21:00 < bridge> I'll move on now. No hard feelings, thanks a lot for listening @murpi and you, this was I think an important topic 21:01 < bridge> https://heinrich5991.github.io/blog/blog/one-tick-unfreeze 21:01 < bridge> This seems to explain the change quite well 21:01 < bridge> Please pass on the message that we just have some concerns and would like to chat. It really doesn't have to be hostile, we all want the same thing, a healthy game and nice maps to play 21:02 < bridge> Who was prev testing leader? 21:02 < bridge> This change mostly went through when we figured out that it's possible to do this with vanilla teeworlds just as long as you have hammer bound to mwheel 21:03 < bridge> Yeah, I see. 21:03 < bridge> At that point without any way to prevent it without breaking tons of maps, the only solution was to make it just a feature everyone can use without weird hacks 21:03 < bridge> Very good to know tbh, I used to think that and started to think otherwise, lets keep thinking like that 21:04 < bridge> The one and only jao, he who had the only troubleless testing spree 21:05 < bridge> Might be a bit non-developer-friendly. It could be nice to get some more feedback on PRs before they are released. But to be honest I'm not completely conviced of the quality of the feedback. But definitely worth a try. 21:06 < bridge> Problem that I fail to get across to people every time this comes up is the fact that it's incredibly hard to get an unbiased sample of the community 21:06 < bridge> What do admins actually do :thonk: 21:07 < bridge> Just management of servers, management of moderators and final decisions on big changes 21:07 < bridge> Alternatively, you could adopt an approach similar to our moderator staff, where there is no designated leader, and decisions are made through a democratic process. ;) 21:07 < bridge> I think what we need are mandatory votes ingame before being able to join a server 21:08 < bridge> Day to day it's mostly server management, ddos sampling and some renames of players 21:09 < bridge> I had a similar idea: https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/issues/4649 21:09 < bridge> Yes and No aren't really opinions but it's stil lbetter than nothing 21:09 < bridge> Problem is that very few people qualified to test on the level we want even exist. It's been the issue for years 21:10 < bridge> what hammer change 21:10 < bridge> https://discord.com/channels/252358080522747904/293493549758939136/1160290707609751694 21:11 < bridge> Yes and No votes aren't really opinions but it's stil lbetter than nothing 21:11 < bridge> oh that one was a good change 21:11 < bridge> Yes and No votes aren't really opinions but it's still better than nothing 21:11 < bridge> The closest system we had was the Welf, RayB, jao coalition, which I kinda liked tbh but they had to go ruin 21:11 < bridge> Do you have 10k points? 21:11 < bridge> Doesnt seem like such a desirable role after all 😄 21:11 < bridge> no but i played before ddnet existed 21:11 < bridge> so i still count 21:12 < bridge> Day to day having to fix things due cosmic rays 21:12 < bridge> Day to day having to fix things due to cosmic rays 21:13 < bridge> The mundane management part I kinda like. I hate this sort of confrontational "debate" whenever there is a change 21:14 < bridge> doesnt actually sound like a horrible idea. But if people only have 2 minutes to decide the kind of polls you can run seem fairly limited. How would you even decide if you want the hammer change in 2 minutes? 21:16 < bridge> Maybe a broadcast when we get close to big changes inviting people to join the discussion if they care 21:17 < bridge> Like "In 1 week DDNet 17.3 will be shipping with big changes, join the discussion on Discord" 21:17 < bridge> BIG CHANGES 21:17 < bridge> @_voxeldoesart 21:17 < bridge> It's impossible to summarize a change like the hammer change in a vote 21:18 < bridge> is that an example or is hammer actually getting changed again 21:18 < bridge> Funnily enough, one entire half of this community get almost no say on anything. China is as big as the entirety of all the other regions 21:19 < bridge> That's actually the goal of the issue. To get input from them. 21:19 < bridge> i mean arent most people who vote no old players 21:20 < bridge> and like 99% of the chinese playerbase is newish 21:20 < bridge>