01:14 < bridge> <chillerdragon> What’s this discord link?
03:36 < bridge> <Ewan> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/295908390956433410/1154858469199982663/IMG_20230922_211055.jpg
03:36 < bridge> <Ewan> 
03:36 < bridge> <Ewan> https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/295908390956433410/1154858469434855455/IMG_20230922_211033.jpg
03:36 < bridge> <Ewan> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/1154954396136906792/IMG_3670.png
05:42 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> here are the colors for the friends tab
05:42 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/1154986237141188699/image.png
06:42 < bridge> <MilkeeyCat> Morning ddnet
09:34 < bridge> <chillerdragon> Thanks :)
09:34 < bridge> <chillerdragon> 
09:34 < bridge> <chillerdragon> I only know Aoe watafk are those other names. Is the first one really supposed to be Freezestyler ? Xd
09:36 < bridge> <chillerdragon> Also is there some player called ZillyHoo or did my alt name with 2 finished make it in the list? :D
09:58 < bridge> <Ewan> i think it’s just chat gpt being full of shit
10:03 < bridge> <Ewan> ask it about pretty much anything niche and it'll try to make something up but usually fails hard
10:03 < bridge> <Ewan> maybe they changed that since last i tried though cuz now it just says idk
10:04 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> oh really? nice. better than just inventing stuff xd
10:04 < bridge> <Ewan> agree
10:04 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> but tbh, gpt 3.5 sucks compared to gpt 4
10:04 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> it's like day and night
10:05 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> i can instantly tell if the answer is from gpt 4 or 3
10:05 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> 
10:05 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> 4 answers differently
10:05 < bridge> <Ewan> are u in the beta
10:05 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> i used it months ago
10:05 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> i'd try it again when gpt 5 comes out
10:05 < bridge> <Ewan> lol
10:05 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> sadly generally i don't find GPT useful enough yet
10:05 < bridge> <Ewan> im not a big fan of chat gpt in general but i can't deny its usefulness
10:05 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> lol xD
10:06 < bridge> <Ewan> im kinda fundamentally against using it
10:06 < bridge> <Ewan> but
10:06 < bridge> <Ewan> everyone's saving all this time
10:06 < bridge> <Ewan> so i can't really knock it
10:06 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> but i often use it to write bash scripts xD
10:06 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> bcs the syntax is so weird
10:06 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> finding files with .png ending and stuff like that
10:06 < ChillerDragon> i used it once and it was useful
10:06 < bridge> <Ewan> find . -type f -name "*.png"
10:07 < ChillerDragon> its nice for looking up syntax that is hard to google due to special characters
10:07 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> there is now a open source model, that is said to be better than gpt 3.5
10:07 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> 
10:07 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> https://huggingface.co/blog/falcon-180b#demo
10:07 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> 
10:07 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> but at least for coding stuff, i can't agree
10:07 < bridge> <Ewan> bash is ez once you get to know it
10:07 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> i try to use bash only for straight foward stuff
10:07 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> loops etc. are always a struggle for me xD
10:07 < bridge> <Ewan> yea
10:08 < bridge> <chillerdragon> ```yaml
10:08 < bridge> <chillerdragon> foo:
10:08 < bridge> <chillerdragon>   <<: *bar
10:08 < bridge> <chillerdragon> ```
10:08 < bridge> <Ewan> doesn't help they usually have multiple syntaxes for a lot of stuff
10:08 < ChillerDragon> how would you google what this does without known how it is named?
10:08 < bridge> <Ewan> true
10:08 < ChillerDragon> chatgpt did epic helpout on that one for me. But also thats the only use case i had since release :D
10:09 < ChillerDragon> who needs chatgpt when you have ddnet#developer
10:09 < bridge> <Ewan> true
10:09 < ChillerDragon> jopsti bash loops are easy
10:09 < bridge> <Ewan> for do done
10:10 < bridge> <Ewan> damn i just got macports and it seems so much better than homebrew
10:10 < ChillerDragon> wtf
10:10 < bridge> <Ewan> it's actually reasonably fast on this sad old mac
10:10 < ChillerDragon> Ewan stuck in 2008
10:10 < bridge> <Ewan> and i get a progress bar... dude...
10:11 < ChillerDragon> as a homebrew contributor i feel offended
10:11 < bridge> <Ewan> lol what'd u contribute
10:11 < bridge> <Ewan> chiller are u a mac guy
10:12 < ChillerDragon> i contributed some bash to the installer :D
10:12 < bridge> <Ewan> neat
10:12 < ChillerDragon> had bugs and broke the internet
10:12 < ChillerDragon> average chiler code moment
10:12 < ChillerDragon> im kinda a mac guy yeah
10:13 < bridge> <Ewan> do u do hackintosh
10:13 < ChillerDragon> nah vanilla
10:13 < bridge> <Ewan> u pay for mac
10:13 < ChillerDragon> i just dont turn on my mac anymore since i got gaming pc with arch on it
10:13 < bridge> <Ewan> sad
10:13 < bridge> <Ewan> what mac is it
10:13 < ChillerDragon> some 2015 mac book pro
10:13 < bridge> <Ewan> oh yeah i wouldn't either
10:14 < ChillerDragon> no its good 
10:14 < bridge> <Ewan> i don't like laptops generally
10:14 < bridge> <Ewan> they're so uncomfortable to use
10:14 < ChillerDragon> i bought it in 2017 or whenever everything was full of touch of genius bars
10:14 < ChillerDragon> i intentionally bought a old model without the touch bs
10:14 < ChillerDragon> imagine using vim with touch esc key
10:14 < bridge> <Ewan> lol
10:15 < bridge> <Ewan> man i want to consult about hackintosh but i hear tonymacx86 is bad and the hackintosh discord i joined is full of ppl like me who need help
10:15 < bridge> <Ewan> and nobody around to help
10:17 < bridge> <Ewan> wondering if i can get clover with some linux
10:17 < bridge> <Ewan> so i can use the linux on the pc rn but install mac later when i have an appropriate gpu
10:57 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> true story bro
10:57 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> 
10:57 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> either u on pc. then desktop is nicer
10:57 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> 
10:57 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> or you are away from keyboard... then u also don't need to justify your computer addiction with shitty hardware
10:57 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> 😬
10:58 < bridge> <Ewan> thx discord
10:58 < bridge> <Ewan> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/1155065557897465896/IMG_3671.png
10:58 < bridge> <Ewan> and yea
10:58 < bridge> <Ewan> but if im away from home for more than a night i bring the laptop
10:58 < bridge> <Ewan> cuz i gotta have computer
10:59 < bridge> <Ewan> but i never use my laptop at home
10:59 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> i think i wasnt away from home for longer except holidays for like at least a year already xDD
10:59 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> 
10:59 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> i am in my anti social phase ig
11:00 < bridge> <Ewan> damn
11:00 < bridge> <Ewan> last time i went to work i brought my desktop and it was a pain in the ass
11:00 < bridge> <Ewan> and i have to go back on sunday
11:00 < bridge> <Ewan> i am still deciding whether i'm gonna bring it again
11:02 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> wtf xD
11:02 < bridge> <Ewan> not like
11:02 < bridge> <Ewan> to work
11:02 < bridge> <Ewan> but to where i stay when i work
11:02 < bridge> <Ewan> different town
11:02 < bridge> <Ewan> 😃
11:02 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> https://tenor.com/view/house-gif-boombox-md-hugh-laurie-gif-5490452
11:02 < bridge> <Ewan> dude i love dr house
11:02 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> u going to work wiuth ur pc xD
11:02 < bridge> <Ewan> i can't landscape with my pc
11:02 < bridge> <Ewan> strapped to my shoulders
11:03 < bridge> <Ewan> or smth
13:33 < bridge> <teero777> im gamin on a intel nuc rn and ive crashed like 3 times now xdd
13:33 < bridge> <teero777> am gonna check things in debug mode
14:18 < bridge> <Mr.Gh0s7> Is there a way to use the `https://ddnet.org` site to connect servers directly?
14:19 < bridge> <Mr.Gh0s7> Like `https://ddnet.org/servers/51.89.23.241:8338` would connect to noby's fng
14:19 < bridge> <DDNet> 51.89.23.241:8338 appears to be a FNG server found within the DDNet tab. 
14:19 < bridge> <DDNet> These servers are classified as official but are not regulated by us. 
14:19 < bridge> <DDNet> For support, join this https://discord.gg/utB4Rs3 discord server instead.
14:19 < ChillerDragon> ddnet://51.89.23.241:8303
14:20 < ChillerDragon> this works on my machine
14:20 < bridge> <Mr.Gh0s7> yeah but for discord to integrate it as Markdown it has to be an `https://` or `http://` link afaik
14:20 < ChillerDragon> ah you want an embedabble clickable link that redirects to ddnet://
14:20 < bridge> <Mr.Gh0s7> yeah
14:20 < ChillerDragon> hmm idk if browser can do that
14:21 < bridge> <Mr.Gh0s7> Firefox can
14:21 < ChillerDragon> ah yea
14:21 < ChillerDragon> `window.location = 'ddnet://51.89.23.241:8303'`
14:21 < ChillerDragon> works for me
14:22 < ChillerDragon> you could publish 2 lines of javascript on github pages
14:22 < ChillerDragon> that look at the url and redirect to ddnet://
14:24 < bridge> <ikeed> yeah
14:24 < bridge> <ikeed> [Germany](http://89.111.131.224/?addr=51.89.23.241:8338)
14:24 < bridge> <ikeed> http://89.111.131.224/?addr=51.89.23.241:8338
14:24 < bridge> <DDNet> 51.89.23.241:8338 appears to be a FNG server found within the DDNet tab. 
14:24 < bridge> <DDNet> These servers are classified as official but are not regulated by us. 
14:24 < bridge> <DDNet> For support, join this https://discord.gg/utB4Rs3 discord server instead.
14:27 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> MERGE SATURDAY
14:35 < ChillerDragon> @ikeed i yoinked ur code :p
14:36 < bridge> <Mr.Gh0s7> xD how?
14:36 < ChillerDragon> using copy paste
14:36 < bridge> <Mr.Gh0s7> :O
14:36 < ChillerDragon> https://chillerdragon.github.io/open-ddnet/?addr=XXX
14:36 < ChillerDragon> @Mr.Gh0s7 just replace XXX with your wanted ip
14:37 < bridge> <Mr.Gh0s7> noice @ikeed
14:38 < bridge> <Mr.Gh0s7> ty ChillerDragon
14:39 < ChillerDragon> @ikeed dont sue me :D i just had the same code written down w out domcontent loaded :D
14:46 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> as a lawyer i can say: he can't sue you.
14:46 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> Continue your illegal stuff
14:46 < ChillerDragon> thanks lawyer jposti
14:47 < ChillerDragon> i shouldve just silently written the code instead of leaking the idea in a dev channel first xd
14:52 < ChillerDragon> chatgpt just leaked heinrichs identity o.O
14:53 < ChillerDragon> https://zillyhuhn.com/cs/.1695473562.png
14:54 < ChillerDragon> i dont get it. How can people use chatgpt for anything? If you do not know the domain how to do you realize half of it is made up?
14:55 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> people who use chatgpt are cowards for not putting in the work themselves
14:56 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> LMAO XD
14:56 < ChillerDragon> i wouldnt say that skipping work is cowardish more that the outcome of the work is useless
14:56 < ChillerDragon> if a ran the same prompt on minecraft i wouldnt know if it was true or wrong if it started to name some mc developers
14:57 < ChillerDragon> i just know chatgpt did not just dox heinrich :D
14:57 < ChillerDragon> https://zillyhuhn.com/cs/.1695473864.png
14:57 < ChillerDragon> this is gold
14:58 < ChillerDragon> but chatgpt is same as me a fellow heinrich5991 enjoyer
14:58 < bridge> <fokkonaut> dox ban
14:58 < bridge> <fokkonaut> :ban:
14:58 < bridge> <fokkonaut> :banhammer:
14:59 < bridge> <teero777> kek I once asked gpt if it knows the teeworlds KoG gamemode...
14:59 < bridge> <teero777> all hail Kill or Gold
14:59 < ChillerDragon> xd
15:00 < bridge> <teero777> you have to collect gold coins to not die while battling other tees xd
15:00 < ChillerDragon> this is fun
15:00 < ChillerDragon> i feel a bit late to the party but its fun af
15:01 < ChillerDragon> @fokkonaut :p https://zillyhuhn.com/cs/.1695474062.png
15:01 < bridge> <teero777> Basically free for all but with a timer that resets when collecting gold. You die when the timer runs out or you get killed by others xd
15:01 < bridge> <fokkonaut> ez
15:01 < bridge> <teero777> try ne
15:01 < bridge> <teero777> *me
15:02 < bridge> <teero777> Add legendary before my name ofc
15:02 < ChillerDragon> https://zillyhuhn.com/cs/.1695474125.png
15:02 < ChillerDragon> too late
15:03 < bridge> <fokkonaut> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/1155127195644215336/image.png
15:03 < ChillerDragon> 2
15:03 < ChillerDragon> dafak is FQuist
15:04 < bridge> <fokkonaut> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/1155127438486020126/image.png
15:04 < bridge> <teero777> who is teero?!
15:04 < bridge> <teero777> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/1155127470899601508/Screenshot_20230923-1503162.png
15:04 < bridge> <fokkonaut> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/1155127676999315506/image.png
15:05 < ChillerDragon> F
15:05 < ChillerDragon> tru random axaxa
15:05 < bridge> <fokkonaut> xa
15:06 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> imagine if everything was 100% accurate
15:06 < ChillerDragon> then it would not be coward
15:06 < ChillerDragon> but efficent#
15:06 < bridge> <fokkonaut> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/1155128173835583508/image.png
15:07 < bridge> <fokkonaut> shat ab voxil
15:07 < ChillerDragon> minecraft axaxax
15:07 < bridge> <fokkonaut> lasergurkenland axaxxa
15:07 < ChillerDragon> hrhr
15:07 < bridge> <fokkonaut> :lol:
15:07 < ChillerDragon> letting it halluctinate tw code is kinda fun
15:10 < ChillerDragon> Dustforce Discord Network
15:10 < ChillerDragon> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxXXD
15:10 < ChillerDragon> https://zillyhuhn.com/cs/.1695474624.png
15:10 < ChillerDragon> i cant
15:10 < ChillerDragon> dude thats so gonna end up in my gh bio
15:14 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> no itd be scary af
15:14 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> a program that knows your EVERY secret? like, yap all you want about google algorythm but i still havent gotten worried about how much it knows about me
15:15 < bridge> <ikeed> @Chiller all good, i do wish we use ddnet.org for that though, makes more sense for ddnet to maintain it (esp given that redirection link could and should be used in `Server Info -> Copy Info`)
15:15 < ChillerDragon> ok sure itll be scary no doubt
15:15 < ChillerDragon> @ikeed yea thatd be cool
15:15 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> HA IT DOESNT KNOW ME
15:15 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> :gigachad:
15:15 < ChillerDragon> it also doesnt know deen lol
15:18 < bridge> <cyberFighter> theres more oldschools getting released than blockers in multeasymap
15:24 < ChillerDragon> dude wtf you can crack hashes with chatgpt?
15:24 < ChillerDragon> https://zillyhuhn.com/cs/.1695475479.png
15:25 < bridge> <learath2> If there are any python users amogus, what does one use to format their code nowadays?
15:26 < bridge> <ikeed> nay, ive actually had this idea of registering URI schema for teeworlds and using a redirection page for about 1.5 years now, given how lazy i am i should have talked about it back then instead of postponing it all to write it someday myself
15:26 < ChillerDragon> gg=G
15:27 < bridge> <ikeed> u intend on leaving this page run? I wanna update links to noby fng later on to have these
15:27 < ChillerDragon> its github paying for it
15:27 < bridge> <ikeed> aight cool
15:27 < ChillerDragon> so i would have to activley take it done which i do not see a reason for 
15:29 < ChillerDragon> lerato i just realized my trol was stupid af xd
15:30 < ChillerDragon> gg=G is mostly for indent based on curleys right? so its the most useless thing for python
15:30 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> tbh i dunno
15:30 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> i just type it
15:30 < ChillerDragon> you want someone who puts spaces around your equals and shit right?
15:31 < bridge> <learath2> Just want consistent code style
15:31 < ChillerDragon> yea i see
15:31 < ChillerDragon> i assume the first best search engine hit does the job no?
15:33 < ChillerDragon> also wat python u writin?
15:34 < ChillerDragon> @learath2 i think i have seen "black" at work
15:34 < ChillerDragon> https://black.readthedocs.io/en/stable/the_black_code_style/current_style.html
15:35 < ChillerDragon> lgtm
15:35 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> i remember black
15:35 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> @deen is the versioning even fixed?
15:38 < bridge> <robyt3> Can the DDNet discord bot not at least create clickable ddnet:// links because it's a bot?
15:40 < ChillerDragon> how so?
15:40 < ChillerDragon> i think its electron looking at the protocol
15:40 < ChillerDragon> ddnet should just host ikeeds epic js
15:40 < ChillerDragon> and the bot should use that
15:41 < bridge> <robyt3> Discord bots and webhooks should be able to create hyperlinks with a different URL and display text
15:41 < bridge> <robyt3> Like "Click here" (with the link hidden)
15:42 < bridge> <robyt3> Which could also be used to force the ddnet:// link to be clickable
15:42 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> I mean Discord has markdown now
15:42 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> [Twitter](https://x.com)
15:43 < bridge> <ikeed> yeah, but not everyone us using discord, and its not just for ddnet server with the bot of yours
15:43 < bridge> <ikeed> doesnt recognise custom uri schemas
15:43 < bridge> <ikeed> steam:// works i think
15:43 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> was just an example
15:44 < bridge> <robyt3> :poggers: I thought it was not allowed for normal users
15:44 < bridge> <ikeed> `[addr](desc)`
15:44 < bridge> <ryozuki> black iirc
15:44 < bridge> <robyt3> [ddnet://176.9.114.238:8303](ddnet://176.9.114.238:8303)
15:44 < bridge> <DDNet> 176.9.114.238:8303 is an official DDNet server. 
15:44 < bridge> <DDNet> <steam://run/412220//176.9.114.238:8303>/
15:44 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> Imagine a world where Discord nitro-locks markdown :justatest:
15:45 < bridge> <robyt3> (steam://run/412220//176.9.114.238:8303/)[steam://run/412220//176.9.114.238:8303/]
15:45 < bridge> <DDNet> 176.9.114.238:8303 is an official DDNet server. 
15:45 < bridge> <DDNet> <steam://run/412220//176.9.114.238:8303>/
15:45 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> [ddnet link](ddnet://176.9.114.238:8303)
15:45 < bridge> <DDNet> 176.9.114.238:8303 is an official DDNet server. 
15:45 < bridge> <DDNet> <steam://run/412220//176.9.114.238:8303>/
15:45 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> wtf
15:45 < bridge> <robyt3> [steam://run/412220//176.9.114.238:8303/](steam://run/412220//176.9.114.238:8303/)
15:45 < bridge> <DDNet> 176.9.114.238:8303 is an official DDNet server. 
15:45 < bridge> <DDNet> <steam://run/412220//176.9.114.238:8303>/
15:45 < bridge> <robyt3> hmm
15:45 < bridge> <ryozuki> they botched it
15:45 < bridge> <ryozuki> they didnt implementent FULL URI support
15:45 < bridge> <ryozuki> they just added a regex
15:45 < bridge> <ryozuki> for http protocol
15:45 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> maybe it only works for https links
15:45 < bridge> <ryozuki> discord engineers
15:46 < bridge> <ikeed> I though steam:// also worked
15:46 < bridge> <ikeed> welp
15:46 < bridge> <_voxeldoesart> i wonder if it can be abused
16:19 < bridge> <learath2> I was supposed to do some other thing for the bot but just spent 2 hours on getting everything synchronized back up properly
17:45 < bridge> <learath2> What even is this implementation of dead reckoning?
17:45 < bridge> <learath2> Just randomly creates an extra empty world core for the lulz
18:10 < bridge> <teero777> @jupeyy_keks when do we get native stretching in ddnet? xd
18:11 < bridge> <teero777> so you can play on 5:4 stretched while your screen is on 16:9
18:11 < bridge> <teero777> or any other res
18:13 < bridge> <learath2> Why do you want widetees?
18:15 < bridge> <learath2> Does anyone actually know why we even do dead reckoning?
18:15 < bridge> <teero777> i usually play stretched.
18:16 < bridge> <teero777> feels faster
18:24 < bridge> <learath2> Easily the weirdest snippet of code I've ever read, `m_ReckoningCore` isn't ever the one sent. We make a very crude guess, and at the same time we also calculate the actual `m_Core` properly.
18:24 < bridge> <learath2> 
18:24 < bridge> <learath2> What is the point here? If our crude guess matches, doesn't matter we still had to do the entire calculation. If it doesn't match, (which it hasn't in years actually since the ddrace post core tick never happens for the reckoning core) we still send the proper one we calculated
18:29 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> this is job of your gpu driver
18:29 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> but such libs exist for opengl
18:30 < bridge> <teero777> some GPUS don't support it sooo
18:30 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> to me it looks like bloat adding it to a single software
18:30 < bridge> <nuborn> hmm, perhaps its not that useful. in some very specific cases, like if a player is in the air and falling down without moving, it might save a little bit of bandwidth because the client can predict the position (using evolve), so the server doesn't update the character. but if the player is just standing still it shouldn't make a difference, since the delta snapping should handle it anyway
18:30 < bridge> <Jupstar ✪> install linux. then u probs have some workaround
18:33 < bridge> <learath2> Ah, now I get the idea
18:33 < bridge> <learath2> it's bandwidth we are trying to save, not a server performance thing
18:35 < bridge> <nuborn> yes, for performance it would be better not to have it, since it forces both client and server to do (at least) one extra physics calculcation for each tick
18:41 < bridge> <nuborn> don't know if it was added to vanilla before or after delta snapshots, or if anyone calculated what the savings are (potentially there could perhaps be some on dummy maps)
18:50 < bridge> <learath2> @nuborn any idea why `m_Jumped` is being manipulated from `DDRacePostCoreTick` instead of within the core tick?
19:04 < bridge> <nuborn> don't know. from the comments it seems it's only to get the right color for the feet, so maybe it doesn't have any effect on physics, but would seem more right to do it the core yes
19:05 < bridge> <nuborn> or in the snapping even if it's just for the visual part
20:08 < bridge> <cyberFighter> anyone knows why nameplates tend to shake a little bit while on you/the tee you are spectating
20:29 < bridge> <nuborn> oh, I see