00:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yea something along the lines of the less configs the better. Reducing complexity and avoid overseeing Config combination complications 00:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] (@GutZuFusss) 00:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] That is a valid point. Generally I think the idea proposed in 1712 comes with cleaner implementation opportunities, but in terms of practicability I think there are more things related to your argument to be considered. Most notably (again, mind you from the perspective of a gores-only player) the moment the interaction takes place the predicted positions become less relevant anyways, because the situations where we would want a predicte 00:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] Regarding the possibly confusing sudden change in position I am not yet sure if its less confusing to have it happen on player interaction or on player freeze state change. It probably strongly depends on the map type or even situation and should rather be a consideration between having the feature at all instead of choosing the variant. 00:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] @nuborn That is a valid point. Generally I think the idea proposed in 1712 comes with cleaner implementation opportunities, but in terms of practicability I think there are more things related to your argument to be considered. Most notably (again, mind you from the perspective of a gores-only player) the moment the interaction takes place the predicted positions become less relevant anyways, because the situations where we would want a 00:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] Regarding the possibly confusing sudden change in position I am not yet sure if its less confusing to have it happen on player interaction or on player freeze state change. It probably strongly depends on the map type or even situation and should rather be a consideration between having the feature at all instead of choosing the variant. 00:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] @nuborn That is a valid point. Generally I think the idea proposed in 1712 comes with cleaner implementation opportunities, but in terms of practicability I think there are more things related to your argument to be considered. Most notably (again, mind you from the perspective of a gores-only player) the moment the interaction takes place the predicted positions become less relevant anyways, because the situations where we would want a 00:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] Regarding the possibly confusing sudden change in position I am not yet sure if its less confusing to have it happen on player interaction or on player freeze state change. It probably strongly depends on the map type or even situation and should rather be a consideration between having the feature at all instead of choosing the variant. I think I will implement it quick and dirty to see how bad it really is ingame. 00:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] @GutZuFusss prediction isn't turned off if you're frozen, it's just that it correctly predicts taht you can't move while frozen 😉 00:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] yes, with the other one I think one would have to define some duration that the "interaction" should last for it to be useful, and it still wouldn't handle the case of catching tees. so predicting frozen and/or inactive tees in general makes more sense (to me). the change in position would perhaps look acceptable if it doesn't happen too often, since you usually get some glitchy movements with antiping anyway 00:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] One more thing that just came to my mind... How much worse could the transition between unpredicted and predicted really be then the accuracy focused antiping implementation right now? I mean the simplest worst case for the current iteration of antiping that I can think of is a player changes his input direction from 1 to -1. This means, we jump from a prediction that will move the character in one direction to one that will do the exact 00:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] It just sounds far more confusing to have to learn to play with 2 different predictions, and swap between them on the fly. I guess in gores it's probably more appealing, but since the client is specifically for ddrace, I don't see the appeal. 00:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] Fair enough. 00:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] There are too many parts where the tee isn't frozen, so implementing it properly sounds messy 00:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] Both options for antiping kinda suck in their own right, though. As it is now, it's probably less confusing for newer players, at least. 00:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] yes. btw, there is cl_antiping_smooth that was an attempt to soften antiping for players that move unpredictably (without making transitions jumpy), but it makes less of a difference than the setting you propose would 00:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTtbAhQL6kQ&ab_channel=Meskalin 00:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTtbAhQL6kQ&ab_channel=Meskalin 00:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] cl_antiping_smooth is enabled... I think I missed the smooth part (once I get into race) 00:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] They at least get the visual cue of "Holy shit, this ping sucks" lol 00:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] yes, that setting just makes a very marginal difference, since making it more smooth would at some point have sacrificed other things 01:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] wtf is going on at 17 seconds 01:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] I don't actually know which method would be superior in ddrace, not having tees teleport around sounds cleaner in theory... I guess 01:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] Sorry but after briefly discussing this with a friend I have to disagree on the the "its a ddrace client" part. Gores is after all just a map type that is played on (basically) the same mod we all know and love. To top it off, there is a "KoG" tab in the serverbrowser of said client which will filter for servers hosted by a well known network that almost exclusively hosts gores maps. 01:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] But I don't think anyone would want it changed at this point, which means it'd have to be an option, and as stated earlier, I don't think they like adding more options lol 01:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yea, if im being honest I was hoping it was for the sheer amount of options, but conflicting options are a good point and sadly also neglect the idea to just allow values 0 to 2 for the g_Config.m_ClAntiPingPlayers option. 01:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTtbAhQL6kQ&ab_channel=Meskalin 01:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] cl_antiping_smooth is enabled... I think I missed the smooth part (once I get into race) 01:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] DDrace will always be their prime focus, anything that has a potential negative impact on it to make other gamemodes better won't happen. Gores plays far differently than DDrace, ideally you're not interacting with tees at all. I believe the KoG tab was only added to the client because there were issues with the master server due to constant ddos attacks. 01:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] no, was also added because ddnet shouldn‘t be the only big project around 01:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] "also" But yea, I agree with that 01:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] "also" But yea, I agree with that. 01:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] 01:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] Ah, I said "only" in the above post, fair enough. :greenthing: 01:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] What are your thoughts on having 2 different antiping options then, deen? The suggestion of making antiping only work on immobile tees does sound nice for gores. Ignore all inputs outside of freeze 01:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] Again, fair enough. I can't argue with that, especially that gores plays differently. Although it is not relevant to the discussion, I would like to respectfully disagree to your opinion on the ideal interaction with other tees. I think it is just as crucial to the gameplay as it is on other ddrace maps, speedrunning short easy maps is also just as common in ddrace. Maps labeled "Hard Gores" or above are rarely ever played in a team of l 01:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] i wouldn‘t like the inconsistency, some tees you see delayed, some not 01:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] Can you elaborate on the why part please? I cant wrap my head around why that would be a problem, except technical aesthetics. 01:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] Well, I don't think it's bad for gores gameplay, though. You wouldn't be interacting with tees outside of freeze, and not being able to accurately tell where they are is far more problematic. (They teleport sporadically) ... You'd be far better off if antiping wasn't trying to predict them. 01:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] because you have to think about where to aim for each tee, it depends on frozen or unfrozen 01:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] one note: if you pull someone, it'll be inconsistent once they become unfrozen 01:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] Well, in gores, they'll be stationary and then you hammer them quickly. You don't interact with them afterwards. So I think it'd be fine, no? 01:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] unfreezing can also be done by hooking repeatedly 01:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] (and also is. not as often I guess) 01:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] It only becomes a problem once they start moving, but when they start moving, it's not your problem, generally. So you wouldn't really care to see them accurately. They would be teleporting with current antiping anyways. 01:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] @deen you are right, I should get some sleep 🙄 01:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Skeith I would go a step further and call it unplayable, because in gores you in many cases cant even tell if a tee is behind or in front of you, making it difficult to judge if you are at risk of running into the hook of someone else. I have spend the last few days with US gores players and none use antiping on foreign servers, which is a huge loss for them in my opinion. 01:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] not really, with the transition it'd become a problem even if they don't start moving 01:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] I think 01:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] The idea is to only have antiping working when they're immobile, so they're not teleporting around, teleporting around is very chaotic in gores, and unneeded. 01:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Skeith is this what antiping looks like for you 01:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] @deen you are right, I should get some sleep 🙄 I was only thinking about gores, where its considered a no-no to hook unfrozen tees. 01:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Skeith I would go a step further and call it unplayable, because in gores you in many cases cant even tell if a tee is behind or in front of you, making it difficult to judge if you are at risk of running into the hook of someone else. I have spend the last few days with US gores players and none use antiping on foreign servers, which is a huge loss for them in my opinion. 01:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] at 17 seconds 01:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] It used to, yes 01:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] I don't really lag anymore 01:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] I also don't use antiping at all, I can't stand the teleporting. 01:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] wow 01:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] the teleporting is not that big of a deal for me 01:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] but also mines doesnt look like that video 01:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] I'm really used to playing with delay anyways. 01:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] would it perhaps help if the antiping'ed tee was just a ghost @GutZuFusss? 01:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] why do you have three s, @GutZuFusss 01:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] yeah makes sense 01:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] While we are at it, can someone explain why it seems far less jerky in the beginning on the player "Neo" and his dummy and a lot worse later on "geis" in the race? 01:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] idk i always play with antiping on and if i have lag then my own tee starts lagging like crazy aswell, in that vid its just the other players that are teleporting but he saw himself smoothly 01:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] yeah both are weird 01:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] is that just cuz he limited his network? 01:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] I think that idea would be super cluttered and confusing @heinrich5991 01:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] kk ^^ 01:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] because I want to stress that i know that the german word "Fuß" is not spelled with "ss" but many online services dont allow special characters as usernames. 01:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] that option already exists except the not predicted tee is the ghost 01:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] because I want to stress that i know that the german word "Fuß" is not spelled with "ss" but many online services dont allow special characters as usernames. also it is kind of rad. 01:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] only for yourself @plsplsplslol, I think? 01:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] oh its only for yourself 01:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] were they in another team (or solo)? then they wouldn't be predicted 01:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] The more I think about it, the more it sounds like a better version of antiping.. Coming from someone that is extremely used to playing with higher ping anyways. 01:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] No, its all t0 without solo part. 01:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] If it could feel like normal non-antiping outside of freeze, and then feel like normal antiping while doing parts 01:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] if tee is not frozen > hookthrough tees on 01:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] if tee is frozen > hookthrough tee off 01:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] :greenthing: 01:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] I think both options are miserable with high ping, so I'm not really talking about that. 20-80 ping would probably feel great with this option 01:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] And would probably be the better default setting, rather than scaring new players off of it with all the teleporting lol 01:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] my best guess is a ping spike (cl_showpred 1) 01:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] i dont think the teleporting is a big deal 01:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] when i was new having to predict tees when doing drag parts was a much bigger deal 01:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] when i had teeworlds client 01:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] You've also grown used to it from playing with it for years 01:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] i think no antiping is really only viable with 20-30 ping 01:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] Well, that wouldn't change, it's still antiping 01:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] The idea is to remove teleporting outside of drag parts 01:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] you still might want to hook an unfrozen tee though 01:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] that is just falling 01:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] Sorry, by "both options" you mean interaction-based and freeze-state-based here? 01:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] Right, but again, this would be more for KoG 01:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] Your idea and the current antiping, ya 01:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] Well it is big enough of a deal for all the gores players I have talked to to use it on local servers, but not on foreign ones. 01:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] Or maybe it's my idea at this point? I may have understood you wrong. :kek: or I read something someone else suggested 01:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] I think not trying to predict tees at all when they're making inputs would be a far better option for KoG 01:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] That is a perfect summary of my rather streaky stream of messages 😄 01:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] a nice way to handle it would have been to keep predicting the players, but don't predict the input (when they change too often), but that unfortunately makes players move a bit jittery every time a snapshot correction comes. perhaps there would some way to work around that with some kind of smoothing between snapshots though 01:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] (or, maybe not, since zero input would predict gores players as falling down instead of keeping themselves in the air with the hook) 01:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] Honestly I don 01:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] Honestly I don't think there is a reasonable way of predicting gores players. At least none that i can think of. 02:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] Honestly I don't think there is a reasonable way of predicting gores players. At least none that I can think of. 02:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] I have noted the idea to test it out, as I mentioned earlier I find it hard to imagine the impact on all the different kinds of maps and situations. Regardless of the outcome of this discussion my international gores friends will try out at least some of the ideas proposed and I hope that I can motivate some players of other gamemodes and maps aswell. 02:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] @GutZuFusss perhaps you could try implementing it? 02:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] Did you think I was expecting you to do it for me? 😄 "[Testing] it out" includes implementing it 😉 03:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] fair 05:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QensW096pa0 I have implemented the most basic version of the idea where simply all frozen tees get predicted and all the others don't. I have also played for an hour total to get a first impression. 05:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] For gores I can say, that mid air unfreezing with hammer feels quite natural, you can see in the video that the aprupt change is very noticable, but looks far less like unwanted behaviour than the current state. I was a little worried about the up and down save, but it turns out to work well because the velocity and change in position doing it is very low. 05:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] For ddrace however I think it is pretty much unusable. Dragging unfrozen tees is just a pain and as suspected there are massive problems getting used to playing with mixed prediction settings in one session. It is virtually impossible to catch a falling tee if unfreezing happens mid air, the other way around is also not pleasant but seemed to work better in my test cases where the velocity was lower and I always saw when the tee jumped i 05:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] yeah even with 150 ping the transition is not that bad 05:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QensW096pa0 I have implemented the most basic version of the idea where simply all frozen tees get predicted and all the others don't. I have also played for an hour total to get a first impression. 05:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] For gores I can say, that mid air unfreezing with hammer feels quite natural, you can see in the video that the aprupt change is very noticable, but looks far less like unwanted behaviour than the current state. I was a little worried about the up and down save, but it turns out to work well because the velocity and change in position doing it is very low. 05:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] For ddrace however I think it is pretty much unusable. Dragging unfrozen tees is just a pain and as suspected there are massive problems getting used to playing with mixed prediction settings in one session. It is virtually impossible to catch a falling tee if unfreezing happens mid air, the other way around is also not pleasant but seemed to work better in my test cases where the velocity was lower and I always saw when the tee jumped i 05:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] I think the biggest general downside is that when I played on servers with ~30 ping hooking non frozen tees was just enough off to make me struggle because I am used to having antiping on, and it didn't feel like I was getting used to it because most of the time I was dragging frozen tees. 05:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] maybe try only predicting tees who are not pressing anything, that way dragging unfrozen tees would still be fine 05:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] the only problem with that is that the transitions between predict and no predict would be more frequent and unpredictable 05:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] I think the next obvious tweak is to treat tees that did not alter their input (except maybe shifting aim) for a certain amout of time as frozen tees. I think that could make a huge difference with the only cost being introducing another layer of uncertainty. 05:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] That could even make it viable in ddrace to some degree and I think the threshold can be relatively low. 11:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] forgot about that haha 16:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> @ChillerDragon when code thing 16:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/937005255315578880/unknown.png 16:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] Now in real: https://fixmyvars.uol.de/#/ (with Java code snippets) 16:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] omg i love this :D 17:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] Saw a few missing semicolons but wouldt really call those bugs 17:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] Oof 17:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] (@ᶰ°Konͧsti) 17:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> now? 19:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] :monkaS: