01:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Uzumaki-Fire> Make egytian servers  there are alot of egyptian in the last moment
01:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I think we had egyptian servers for a while but the hoster was bad
01:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> It's really hard to find good hosters in proximity to the middle east
05:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <louis> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/792978366596644864/screenshot_2020-12-27_22-52-34.png
05:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <louis> bug (1 of 600 server)
05:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <plsplsplslol> f3 all server names should have louis in them
09:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Headshot> nouis*
09:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <plsplsplslol> also i thought that number was supposed to mean the amount of servers you see after sorting
09:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <plsplsplslol> isnt the percent next to refresh supposed to show how many total servers loaded
11:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> @deen could you promise that if I parse teehistorian for proved cheated rank you will delete all ranks for nicknames who proven cheated at least 2 ranks?
11:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> definitely not
11:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> I've met another player who said that he cheated some time ago and maybe still cheating, that gave me some motivation to work on parser, but if you will, as always, just delete their ranks
11:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> then it's useless work for me, what's the point
11:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> So if I have a cheating client and finish twice on some pros name all his ranks will be deleted? That sounds even worse.
11:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> you can raise the number of cheated ranks to purge all
11:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ama> I mean your argument just got fucked haha
11:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ama> I mean you can do a lot more even check the ips the name played on
11:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> 2 seems definitely low, but I don´t think there is at least one cheater who finished like.. 10 times for someone else
11:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> Sure, there should be some punishment, like nameban or removing all ranks from a period. But I'm not the only person who gets to decide this, should be discussed with other admins too. And so I can't promise you anything.
11:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> so discuss it please
11:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> because this promise is the only thing that can give me enough motivation to do powerful parser
11:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> The decision will probably depend on the specific incident, it's hard to come up with a good ruleset for all possibilities
11:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> I've already told you how to catch some proven cases
11:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> it can't be captured if you're clear
11:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> once in a trillion times mb... 🤔
11:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> @snail @heinrich5991 @Learath2 @jao Thoughts?
11:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> Also I've tried to speedrun "Shooting Range" where 1st rank is 37 seconds. That's insane and I can't be even sure on ddnet if it's real or not
11:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> so would be cool if I knew that this rank is legit and this man is really insane
11:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> to be honest I wrote some simple program that tried to cheat that map and make every shot frame perfect. It had some issues, but it almost finished at around 33-35 seconds. But it was frame-perfect
11:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> to be honest I wrote some simple program that tried to cheat that map and make every shot frame perfect, so I could see what's the perfect time here. It had some issues, but it almost finished at around 33-35 seconds. But it was frame-perfect
11:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Deleting all ranks on a name because of a cheated rank is an insane proposition without accounts
11:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> @Дядя Женя Not sure about Shooting Range, but with Putt Putt we had a similar situation recently: I deleted his rank before because louis said it's probably cheated. So the player provided demo to me. He's actually just really pro at this and kept improving it many more times
11:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> So I hope he is just koren
11:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> So I hope he is just Korean
11:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> Oh, Shooting Range is Jamie
11:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> Yeah, he's pro. I used to play ictf against him ~13 years ago and his aim was incredible even back then
11:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> checking for few ranks, not only one
11:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> We already nameban people that cheat often
11:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Like syltoox
11:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> we already had this discussion when we banned n9
11:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> He even managed to get a perma nameban because no one is willing to give him a 50th chance :D
11:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> and with my parser you could see a lot of proven cheated ranks you didn't see before
11:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> for my opinion he must be in perma-ban right now. Namebanned at least, so he could just start again
11:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> We talked about parsing teehistorian a lot of times. No one even came up with an approach that can prove anything so I'm more interested in what you want to analyze
11:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> he is proven cheater and you just let him play, that was insane for me, I've even left ddnet for 1-2 years after I knew that
11:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> We can't keep people out anyway, we can just nameban them, but they can just play on a different name
11:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> We all came up with many heuristics which should give you suspicious runs, but proving a run is cheated is pretty much impossible barring the very obvious cheating
11:43 <@heinrich5991> re: we can't keep people out, just nameban them:
11:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> we have our reasons
11:44 <@heinrich5991> that's obviously still a harsh penalty probably no one wants to face
11:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> If we have accounts for a while and people start collecting points, there suddenly are actual consequences to getting banned
11:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Though it is equivalent to namebans in some way
11:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> thats better than deleting legit ranks
11:45 <@heinrich5991> namebans are an actual punishment. just see how namebanned people keep coming back asking for an unban
11:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> that affects everyone
11:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> not only the botter
11:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> best punishment is being publicly made fun of for botting
11:45 <@heinrich5991> not sure @ Ravie
11:47 <@heinrich5991> anyway, I'm out, watching rc3 :)
11:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Nah assholes usually love being known as the asshole
11:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> @Дядя Женя Anyway, as you can see, it's hard to generalize. If you had a 100% way of finding some cheaters, that would still be great though
11:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> yeah but if a top player bots, he will never be trusted his ranks are legit again
11:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Look at how they all race to claim ddos attacks. Or how actual killers tend to return to crime scenes
11:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> It's the thrill :P speedrun communities have a lot of these too. I guess they get off on being known as the best AND also taking risk
11:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> if you play with fire, you're gonna get burned
11:50 <@heinrich5991> or not, that's the thing
11:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> @deen for now I'm thinking about some obvious cheating of course
11:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> where you can surely say it's cheated and what's the easiest to detect
11:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> harder things for later ofc
11:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> nameban N9 please
11:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> We did nameban him for a while iirc
11:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> nameban is awesome for top player cheaters
11:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> I know. Why unbanned?
11:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Because punishments are for reform. We don't just execute petty thieves irl :D
11:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> We just don't want them stealing anymore
11:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> ...
11:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> you don't need any points to start doing r1 again
11:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> so delete all of ranks
11:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> let him collect his speedrun points again
11:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> so he have a chance to not cheat this time
11:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> If there is no reform, then we up the punishment. If it still doesn't work then we can talk about extreme measures
11:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> do you know he has a lot of cheated ranks still that you didn't delete?
11:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> and if you bot then I guess you already don't care about reputation, you can just get a new name
11:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> If you know of any, just let us know
11:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> I'm just triggered on this thing
11:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> We keep an eye out on these peoples ranks
11:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> when you're like...
11:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> @Learath2 can you quickly review this please? I should deploy it
11:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> "Oh, he chated. Ok, ok, my lovely cheater, play as always, we will look for your cheated ranks with all dev. team and if we will prove it's cheated we will just delete it without any punishment (kiss)(kiss)"
11:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I know why you are triggered too. Ridiculously overkill punishments are so pleasurable. Like divine justice. God smiting them from the heavens
11:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> "Oh, he cheated. Ok, ok, my lovely cheater, play as always, we will look for your cheated ranks with all dev. team and if we will prove it's cheated we will just delete it without any punishment (kiss)(kiss)"
11:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> But don't forget that this is just a game. At the end of the day we just want everyone to enjoy
11:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @deen on it
11:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> How could I feel comfortable in game when I know that you just let cheaters cheat
11:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> don't forget that because of one botter, other players enjoy the game less
11:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> if you can't prove their new rank is cheated
11:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> then I can just make my own cheats and cheat too. So you will look for my ranks and just clear half of them and waste your time on that
11:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> and normal players wouldn't be sure if it's human possible to get rank1 on this map or I cheated it and it's inhuman
11:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> We should provide demos of each top 1 rank using teehistorian
11:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> The ipad app for github really needs a way to see more context on reviews
11:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I think there is no problem there, merging it
11:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> with a replay bot it's humanly possible anyway, just with training wheels
11:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> that's a good way to keep the player's motivation to start speedrunning, but also it doesn't guarantee rank is not cheated
11:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> At least humans can then see some suspicious behaviour
11:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> and it has some disadvantages discussed earlier
11:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> yeah if you share the rank1s then teehistorian at least has some good use
11:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @deen we really should be keeping a hashmap of ips on CServer so we don’t have to do this O(n^2) mess every time a vote is running
11:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> some maps would just lose it's point then like puzzle maps
12:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> if u wanna puzzle then dont watch it
12:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> good point. it's anyway on youtube
12:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> every other game has playthroughs and sdpeedruns available
12:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> ok. send us all top1 demos
12:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> and wait for cheaters claiming it loooool
12:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> @Learath2 not sure it's that expensive actually
12:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> just sad that there are some people who would look up the r1 strarts and simply do it better, with raw skill and no brain
12:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> why not?
12:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> just sad that there are some people who would look up the r1 strats and simply do it better, with raw skill and no brain
12:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> isn't the speedruns all about that?
12:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> doing as frame-perfect as possible
12:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> thats on them then but i can still lok at a map alone and find my own improvements
12:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> or discovering new way to cut down time
12:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> in tw it's also about coming up with new ways
12:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> and then its more glory for me when everyone sees my run
12:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> after one speedrunner discovers new way everyone can see it, that's how all games speedruns works
12:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> yea
12:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> @deen i think we should do it too
12:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @deen atleast we only run it on a new vote or vote change. But still getting the ips for each player converting to strings doing string comparisons, not very cheap
12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> @Ravie its a combination of both
12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> as it is in every single game thats beeing speedrunned
12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> if the new way is insane he get's the glory
12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> usually the player on top is the one that mixes raw skill and brain/improvements the best
12:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> tbh on almost every game top runs are shared to the world and its never an issue, it just makes it even more competitive
12:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> because then good players can work from that run and add their ways to that top rune
12:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> run
12:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> of course it is
12:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> usually someone finds a crazy new strat and everyone else jumps on it
12:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> the way it is now. its just artificially retarding the process of becomming a better player. i see so many people asking for demos or searching for runs on youtube.
12:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> instead of everyone doing his own shit in secret
12:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> and then good players will find small improvements to that strat
12:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> and in ddnet I'm just looking on rank1: "Oh, n9. Must be cheated, fuck it then" and quit trying
12:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> thats the essence of speedrunning
12:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Hiding strats is quite frowned upon in speedrunning btw. That guy saving a glitch for the oot tournament a couple years ago got absolutely blasted for it
12:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> not just beating a r1 with a shitty run coz u found a secret way that cuts half of the map
12:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> its not even new to TW btw
12:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> all ddnet current ranks can be impoved by 15-50% if there was some insane players
12:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> all ddnet current ranks can be impoved by 15-50% if there were some insane players
12:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> lmao
12:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> if we would share the ways r1 does it then the time will be improved a little more
12:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> maybe solo would pick up again
12:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> right now its only n9
12:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> ||*almost*|| all ddnet current ranks can be impoved by 15-50% if there were some insane players
12:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> I guess it's still better than having botters
12:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> nameban n9
12:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> n9 is good deal with it
12:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> teerace used to share every player's demos and ghosts
12:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> it made it rly competitive tbh
12:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> ye n9 is rly good
12:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> I know he is playing good
12:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> and i never saw a top player complaining about that aspect
12:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> and i cant imagine the admins skip any of his speedruns
12:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Anyway, we did want to provide demos for r1s and I personally wanted to add a ghost downloader so you can easily see your pace against r1. The very core issue here is to play back teehistorian files on the server, which is #2937, if anyone wants to work on it
12:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <DDNet> https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/issues/2937
12:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> and i doubt he would risk it
12:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> but he cheated, so delete all his ranks, so he could make the new ones legit
12:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> @Learath2 for ghost I think you don't need a proper replayer, right?
12:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> I just hate how ddnet stuff covering cheater
12:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> not accepting his ban
12:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> you are mistaken
12:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Again, we watched a lot of his ranks, deleted the cheated ones we found. If you find any others let us know
12:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> @Дядя Женя Deleting his ranks also means we have to delete team ranks of his partners, who might be innocent of any cheating.
12:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> does whole top5 get recorded or only r1?
12:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> We banned the guy, we keep an eye on any new ranks he makes. You can’t expect much more. If he gets caught again, he will get a longer nameban
12:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> @Ravie every movement you ever do on any official ddnet server gets recorded for eternity 😄
12:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ravie the entire server gets recorded all the time
12:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> omg do you really think cheater deserves that much attention and my own time wasted?
12:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://ddnet.tw/players/N9mkOik-32--91-CHEAT-93-/
12:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> best player
12:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> he cheated and I must suffer
12:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> nice
12:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I store 1 to 2 terabytes of ddnet ticks 😄
12:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Дядя Женя no one asked for your time, we put in the time
12:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> o.o I don't want anyone to spy on me jumping around and not playing
12:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> you must suffer because you THINk he cheats
12:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> its on you entirely
12:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> @Ravie we consider movements to not be private data, so we didn't ask you for permission
12:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> then go check all of his ranks and prove it wasn't cheated, can you?
12:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> chat and ip addresses are not recorded
12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> well then at this point everybody cheats and no rank should be stored
12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> yeah just kidding ofc
12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> as a normal player I want to be sure that top ranks are not cheated and I can freely try to get in top10
12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> u can never be sure of that
12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> ur just envy of n9 being to pro
12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> *in any game
12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> lol
12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Chat I agree with but I kinda want to store ips longer. They are not private either and I think it might help us with some of the culprits
12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> thats a rly stupid logic
12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> we try our best to make sure it is
12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> > I can freely try to get in top10
12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> u can with skill
12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> but nothing is safe proof
12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> @Ravie but I also argued that we could delete some runs to save space
12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @noby is having some good success with keeping ips and using them for more precise range bans
12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> ur being paranoid
12:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> the botting issue is not even as close to what u picture it
12:11 <@heinrich5991> @snail we don't really have data on that
12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> the botting issue is not even as close to what u picture it to be
12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> I don't care if someone is pro, I'm raging that you're just licking ass of cheater and not banning him, covering him and letting play with all previous ranks saved, when there are a lot of cheated for sure
12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <noby> tru
12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> @heinrich5991 honestly any good player can get in almost any top5 in solo maps
12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> We keep the most competitive leaderboards as clean as we possibly can
12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> recently around 50 or how many? Ranks of him was deleted by @deen
12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> "for sure"
12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> @Дядя Женя i hereby delcare every one of your runs cheated. proove to me that they arent. good luck
12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> haha
12:11 <@heinrich5991> @snail we have probably only scratched the tip of the cheating issue
12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Almost any insane top5 gets checked within the day
12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> git gud m8
12:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> @Дядя Женя tone down the language please
12:12 <@heinrich5991> our investigation wasn't set up in a way to catch anyone but the most egregious cheaters
12:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Well it wasn’t much of an investigation into cheating as a whole
12:12 <@heinrich5991> I don't think there were only obvious botters, hence I don't think we caught all, thus I think your assertion "you're just paranoid" is uncalled for
12:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> We found a single bug and investigated that
12:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <snail> @Дядя Женя n9 was proven guilty and has been punished for that, we then checkeed more recent ranks and didnt find anything. its not "guilty until proven innocent" if we decided the ban duration to be enough for him to play again on our servers
12:13 <@heinrich5991> ehm, I meant the botting investigation we had a couple of years ago
12:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Ah that one we just had a honeypot for one bot and the others we had to watch by hand so yeah, not really thorough. But since that I think almost all top5 ranks in insane and even some brutal maps gets some scrutiny
12:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> open teehistorian for everyone
12:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> why would you even close it
12:15 <@heinrich5991> we didn't close it, we just didn't open it (yet)
12:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> everyone could check for ranks they wanna see
12:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> At the moment the download of teehistorian files is through my home server, so it's a bit bandwidth-bound 😄
12:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> oh
12:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> It’s almost 2 terabytes of data, it’s not just that we don’t want people to see it 😄
12:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> upload it on torrent lol xD
12:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> Since a public server on internet with > 2 TB disk is not worth the cost
12:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> And no one can do anything with teehistorian files anyway, we need the tooling to get out demo/ghost
12:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> maybe if u can split it somehow and torrent it it might be a way
12:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> top10 ranks then?
12:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I have it on a server but I’m right about running out of storage
12:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> can't you just host the top5? or is that already 2tb
12:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Though compression helped a lot
12:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> top10
12:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> @Ravie sure, we can host them when they can be converted to demo/ghost
12:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I’m glad heinrich5991 made the format compress so well
12:18 <@heinrich5991> btw, you could consider using zstd (if you want at extreme compression levels), it has similar compression with xz (within 5% at extreme compression levels) but decompresses much faster
12:18 <@heinrich5991> @Learath2
12:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Anyway, we can indeed host it but there are a couple things we need to think about before opening it up. I was a bit concerned with privacy with the amount of data involved datamining could be dangerous
12:19 <@heinrich5991> https://archlinux.org/news/now-using-zstandard-instead-of-xz-for-package-compression/
12:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I already use zstd heinrich5991
12:19 <@heinrich5991> nice!
12:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> if it doesnt have chat it should be fine
12:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i think
12:19 <@heinrich5991> it contains timeout codes, we'd need to strip those
12:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I think so too but we need to look into it a bit more
12:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> >  with the amount of data involved
12:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> Oh no! Player's inputs
12:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> danger
12:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Oh did we ever make teleport destinations pseudo random?
12:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> does it really contain timeout codes? I didn't see it
12:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> don't think so
12:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Дядя Женя this is a shortsighted comment. It does contain more than just inputs
12:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> I saw just player inputs and server settings
12:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> All the rcon commands need to be stripped out too
12:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> oh, the cmds ofc
12:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Some server settings might need censoring, don’t know which settings get saved
12:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Anyway, just exposing the raw archive hardly seems like an option to me
12:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> could the demos be attached to the message in #records? would be neat
12:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> If we do provide access to raw teehistorian files and not just demos, it would probably be on request basis. Like you click a button and it queues up the file to be stripped and cleaned up, then you get your file
12:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> should convert it to demo files first
12:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I think we should be doing just demos
12:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> could be videos attached, but it will need some cpu
12:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> could be videos attached, but it would need some cpu
12:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Ooh that would be super cool. Especially now that we have the recording stuff in the code it should be possible
12:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> It needs a smart-ish auto director to spectate tees though
12:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> can i tell my computer to always put .demo files in the dedicated folder?
12:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> no
12:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> I think
12:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> bruh
12:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> One more issue with conversion to demos is which tees to include. It’s actually a sort of involved problem
12:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> i mean when i download them from opera. bcs its always annoying to search for the folder
12:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> technically you could hook the process of GetFileDialog and set the start path on something... maybe... So it could be possible
12:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> why not all of them
12:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I think the simplest way would be to include everyone in view but then you get some people going out of view which makes the demos less nice to watch
12:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> @Im 'corneum it's more annoying to search in demo browser in tw xD
12:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> yeah that demo browser always confuses me
12:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> just record all the tees from your team
12:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> it has no searchbar so I manually scroll through 200 demos
12:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Because well the teehistorian files are massive, we have 64p stronghold3 servers that ran for 2 days maybe. The demo for heinrich’s s2 run is like 10gigs
12:27 <@heinrich5991> Learath2: yes, we save the random seed now
12:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> So it atleast needs to be chopped from run start to run end
12:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> let the top10 for now
12:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> other problem can be fixed later
12:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> But even then with all tees included these 64p demos might get really large
12:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> why all 64 omg
12:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> 1. tees from your team
12:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> 2. demo from start to finish
12:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Maybe everyone you ever interact with for all the demo + everyone in view
12:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> People play in t0 most of the time
12:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> and get top10?
12:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> ok
12:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> when u store konsti being afk in a server forever, is the file as big as someone playing?
12:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> no
12:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> less movement should mean smaller file
12:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> (fewer inputs)
12:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> God talking to you makes me feel like an invertebrate. You really need to be more careful with your tone 😄
12:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> yea but is it significant?
12:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> or can i just be afk from now on to troll you
12:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> It’s not like we are talking about 2+2 here these are all quite involved problems, not really just “omg do that”
12:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> You can stay afk with 100 tees for a few years and it's not too bad
12:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> o
12:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> k
12:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> I can't see any problems and you're trying to find them
12:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> We have average 1000 active players playing 24/7, a few afks don't matter
12:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Anyway, these are all future problems, you should just do #2937
12:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <DDNet> https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/issues/2937
12:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> 1. Get the run from start to finish
12:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> 2. Take all tees from current team
12:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> 3. Let people see only top10 runs for now
12:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> do you only store inputs and simulate them on a map or is the map and everything stored with it like on a demo
12:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Without that none of these matter
12:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> could you hook in some freeze+ unfreeze so your tee keeps rehooking, or does that count as a single input?
12:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> @Im 'corneum only inputs, otherwise it would just be a demo
12:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> there can't be any problems with size. idk if run_antibuguse will even weight that much
12:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Inputs and tee positions
12:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ravie that’s just one hook down input iirc
12:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> how much size is the 3 hours run with 8 tees?
12:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> You’ll need to find someone with such a run and ask them how big the demo is
12:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> just allow it for solo servers for now?
12:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> don't worry about file isze
12:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> as we're always told in gamedev industry - make it work.
12:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Sure, again we want to do this. It requires work. None of us seem to have time for the work
12:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> Then do it better
12:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> as we're always say in gamedev industry - make it work.
12:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> as we're always say in gamedev industry - make it work. Then do it better
12:36 <+ChillerDragon> pls chill ur edits its the 3rd time ur message got resend on irc bro
12:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I wish we could disable edits on this channel
12:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> Is it resend on edit? Lol, ok, sry. Didn't know that
12:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> I though you don't get deletes and edits
12:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> Just don't send it to IRC
12:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> it make sense so irc ppl will know what you've changed. but like don't do it too much i guess.
12:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> Why don't you use discord?
12:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> they doesn't like data collection maybe. there are reasons.
12:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> Just curious, sry if sounds rude, I'm just bad in English at this point
12:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> gtg life requiring attention, cya’ll later
12:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> take care my lord
12:51 <+ChillerDragon> i am banned on discord for not connecting my discord account to my phone number
12:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> since when do you need to do that
12:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> server owners can set if a phone number is require iirc.
12:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/793085381741379594/unknown.png
12:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> yeah but not here
12:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> why would anyone even do that
12:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> on huge server there are a lot of scammer bots
12:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> might need that if it's out of control
12:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> but there are much better ways
12:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> also this server has at least "high" setting which is, again, stupid
13:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> high seems reasonable enough
13:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> why
13:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> cause it doesn't need to connect to your phone
13:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> so ppl that are getting blocked join the server and get blocked for 10 mins until blocker leaves?
13:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> but high feels like you are just delaying the bots by 10 mins
13:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> 10 mins one ime wait is nothing
13:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> and blocking everyone else at the same time
13:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> but i wouldn't mind it
13:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> high is useless and just getting people annoied
13:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> phone number seems a little bit too private for my comfort
13:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> in china you can't do anything without a phone number
13:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> and phone numbers are attached to your identity when you get it.
13:03 <+ChillerDragon> @Ravie they randomly decided to flag my account and did not explain why and said i can get it back ifi confirm a phone number
13:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> but in china privacy isn't really the highest concern, is it? : justatest:
13:03 <+ChillerDragon> i went to support and they did not want to explain why my account was flagged
13:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> but in china privacy isn't really the highest concern, is it? :justatest:
13:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> maybe you somehow disabled all tracking stuff and they just think you are a bot
13:04 <+ChillerDragon> also discord is closed src and likes to collect data etc its just something i do not want to support also the restrictive tos do not even allow custom clients
13:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> @ChillerDragon @ChillerDragon.* time for a new account
13:04 <+ChillerDragon> hm
13:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> i mean irc is pretty free but like you can abuse it pretty hard if you want.
13:04 <+ChillerDragon> i dont miss discord
13:04 <+ChillerDragon> irc is also bad
13:04 <+ChillerDragon> but at least its not discord
13:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> well fuck me then
13:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> does anybody genuinely like discord? I just use it cause everyone else does
13:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Lars635> hey, i have a question, the original Teeworlds server is open for others and can join, but the ddnet server is only in lan.
13:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Lars635> the only error i get is: Setting TOS on ipv6 failed: 2
13:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> i do like discord because all of the chinese one sucks more
13:07 <+ChillerDragon> @Ravie i try to stay away from software that i dont genuinely like these days im much happier since i do it
13:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> and i don't care about phone numbers generally.
13:08 <+ChillerDragon> i would love to get rid of my phone bcs i dont like owning one
13:09 <+ChillerDragon> so i have to pick services that do not requires phones 
13:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> i think you can find out where did I moved in the past 15 years by searching "TsFreddie" and dig deep enough.
13:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> :justatest:
13:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> you might also solve some of my other names and fully doxx me if you really want.
13:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> So i just don't care anymore lol
13:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ravie> well it's not like anybody here can search in chinese anyway
13:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> i guess that's why i don't care? if a chinese person dox me it is pretty easy to get a hold of their identity as well if they ever threatened me.
13:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> otherwise, good luck get into china lol
13:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> ~~also this is not a challenge, please don't do anything crazy like bombing my entire home city.~~
13:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> Not so hard to get into China 😄 You can just get a tourist visa
13:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> <a:ragouis:771864118609182780> don't give them ideas
13:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> i wonder if swatting can be a thing in china tho. never heard of any instance of swatting here.
14:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ᶰ°Konͧsti> <a:ragouis:771864118609182780>
14:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Toxxic1> anyone know how to make entities?
14:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <gerdoe> QQ
14:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> exactly
15:17 <+ChillerDragon> @Toxxic1 like draw them? Use a image editor and activate a 64x64 grid overlay
15:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Toxxic1> you know how when your in the map editor, and u hover ur mouse over an entity
15:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Toxxic1> it tells you what the entity is used for
15:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Toxxic1> how do i do that
15:39 <+ChillerDragon> edit this file @Toxxic1 https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/blob/master/src/game/editor/explanations.cpp
15:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Toxxic1> thanks!
15:40 <+ChillerDragon> u have do download ddnet source code and compile
15:40 <+ChillerDragon> did u ever do that?
15:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie 🌈> what does discord replies look like on irc.
16:02 <+ChillerDragon> what r discord replies
16:03 <+ChillerDragon> https://zillyhuhn.com/cs/.1609167608.png
16:03 <+ChillerDragon> Freddie ur name is the worst btw it messes up the whole chat xd
16:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> I would say colored emojis is what messes up any kind of text
16:04 <+ChillerDragon> yea
16:04 <+ChillerDragon> my irc client might be too old for that
16:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <louis> chiller why do u not like phones
16:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <louis> u mean like smartphones?
16:49 <+bridge> [freenode] <Zwelf> Got another crash while loading on GER2. Would be interested in the stack trace ^^
16:52 <+ChillerDragon> @louis i never owned a non smart phone and am not rly interested in owning one but somehow i dislike owning a smartphone
16:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> Zwelf: It's in https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/issues/3144
16:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <louis> u should get one of those hippie non-smart-phone smart phones
16:54 <+ChillerDragon> are servers running with asan?
16:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <louis> i remember looking at this thing a long time ago https://www.thelightphone.com/
16:54 <+ChillerDragon> im thinking about getting the librem5 it might be laggy and slow enough that i wont use it as a smartphone but still have all the features
16:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <louis> nice
16:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> ChillerDragon: Only on GER2 I have 50% of servers with asan, 50% with ubsan. Elsewhere not enough resources to do this in production
16:56 <+ChillerDragon> @deen this output looks potentially more usueful than gdb i thougth all this ubsan asan new ddnet thingys are only static analyzers during compile time
16:56 <+ChillerDragon> maybe i should look into it to debug our crashes
16:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> no, they are sanitizers, not static analyzers
16:56 <+ChillerDragon> i see
16:56 <+ChillerDragon> so is it a external program like valgrind or gdb running it?
16:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> that means they compiled into your program to give you better information when something goes wrong
16:56 <+ChillerDragon> oh ok
16:56 <+ChillerDragon> so its not
16:56 <+ChillerDragon> interesting
16:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> no, the compiler builds it straight into the executable
16:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> there is some overhead, for asan mostly memory overhead, for ubsan cpu overhead
16:57 <+ChillerDragon> is the performance as good as running with gdb?
16:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> gdb has no overhead at all
16:58 <+ChillerDragon> oh wow
16:58 <+ChillerDragon> didnt know that
16:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> asan and ubsan have overhead, but much less than valgrind
16:58 <+ChillerDragon> yea valgrand is useless for actually running a server xd
16:59 <+ChillerDragon> well but looking closer at the issue i have no clue how to find a bug there
16:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> 64 player server is still fine with asan or ubsan, not sure if both at once still works
16:59 <+ChillerDragon> on what cpu 
16:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> i7 2600 @ 3.4 GHz
17:00 <+ChillerDragon> thats nice cpu
17:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> that's GER2
17:01 <+ChillerDragon> did u ever get something out of ubsan and asan?
17:01 <+ChillerDragon> im a bit skeptic now if its worth it
17:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> dozens of bug fixes
17:02 <+ChillerDragon> hm 
17:02 <+ChillerDragon> do you have an example?
17:03 <+ChillerDragon> does it produce better backtraces because it detectes crashes early by monitoring the heap etc?
17:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> `git log --grep san --no-merges`
17:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> https://clang.llvm.org/docs/AddressSanitizer.html
17:05 <+ChillerDragon> ou the git log looks promising actually
17:06 <+ChillerDragon> ima try to get it running i think
17:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> But to be fair I also broke many things while fixing 😄
17:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> I blame our lack of proper testing
20:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> Interestingly the recommendation on Linux for Intel GPU drivers seems to be modesetting instead of xf86-video-intel. But modesetting has such horrible performance that I don't understand how people can use it. I get 7 fps with the new newyear theme instead of 52 fps with xf86-vide-intel.
20:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @louis not viable as queue can be abused
20:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <louis> how
20:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> you make a bot that fills the queue
20:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <louis> ok
20:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <louis> oops
20:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <louis> wrong chat
20:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> the current system being random helps real ppl join
20:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <louis> wym bot
20:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <louis> like something spoofed?
20:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> u just fill the queue with lot of clients waiting
20:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <louis> could u limit to like 1/ip
20:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> see no difference to the current system
20:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> wrt. the problem Ryo is proposing
20:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> i.e. I don't htink the current systme is better for real ppl
21:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @deen modesetting? I thought that was just something a driver does
21:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> @Learath2 https://linux.die.net/man/4/modesetting