00:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> I could send you some random files for starters?
00:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> or anything specific?
00:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> @deen Some files with same same exact starting input would be great
00:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> also files with and without finish
00:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> How can I find exact starting input?
00:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> idk xD
00:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> could be on some maps maybe
00:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> but even maps when you need to hold keys will not let you have the same input as other
00:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> because it needs to be frame perfect. Cuz you're still sending inputs from freeze
00:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <louis> im curious how u will detect ppl who only do 1 run for their botted ranks
00:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <louis> u could try getting known botted ranks tho
00:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> still have no idea, but we at least could easily catch stupid cheater
00:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> still have no idea, but we at least could easily catch stupid cheaters
00:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> and some other things
00:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> no idea for 1try speedruns for now. BUT
00:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> But if someone is doing 1try then its probably a cheater, must be checked. Especially when top5-10
00:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> @deen if you have known botted teehistorian - that's perfect
00:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @louis human inputs differ from machine inputs usually
00:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> in subtle ways
00:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <plsplsplslol> replay bot is still human inputs
07:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] <sorgaxD> Hi, I'm not sure where should I write this but, I would like to suggest to put map Nyan Cat in Special Maps section of solo server, and increase Aufnahmetest 3 to solo 4 stars, cause is one of the hardest 3 star solos and Aufnahmetest is like the easier version and it's 3 star
07:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> map's rating system is fk ⏫
07:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> so don't worry
07:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> @Дядя Женя so better not improve it? what's that attitude?
07:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> try to be more constructive with your criticism, please. non-thought out criticism just makes life harder, and doesn't improve anything
07:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> reporting one map is not the way you fix something so screwed
07:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> you should have some solid rules about map ratings and rerate everything
07:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> as well as filter some maps to another or even new categories
08:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> @Дядя Женя it's resources, I don't think we have resources to re-rate every map
08:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> accounts solving everything
08:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Kenzoo> accounts sux
08:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Kenzoo> stop trashtalk
08:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> as an discord moderator could you warn or punish him for such behaviour in my direction please @heinrich5991
08:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> accounts solves everything
08:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> @Дядя Женя I don't see obviously bad behavior. I see "accounts good", and "accounts bad"
08:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Дядя Женя> Maybe I'm misunderstanding some english
08:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trash-talk
08:52 <+ChillerDragon> bro you are not the first person suggestion accounts its a topic with strong opinions and long history so expect some rude language if you bring it up and claim "solving everything"
08:53 <+ChillerDragon> https://forum.ddnet.tw/download/file.php?id=31119
09:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <murpi> I wouldn't consider yes/no sayers "strong opinions"
09:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <murpi> I haven't seen a single person elaborate his opinion why accounts would hurt the community
09:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <murpi> in fact, there isn't even a discussion/issue on github about accounts
09:32 <+ChillerDragon> yea ik
09:32 <+ChillerDragon> its more a heated topic with ppl flaming ingame and so on :D
09:32 <+ChillerDragon> it became almost an tabu
09:33 <+ChillerDragon> is tabu even an english word idk
09:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <murpi> in english? no, german? yes 😄
09:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <murpi> taboo in english
11:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Im 'corneum> Accounts could be bad if names/points can be stolen.
11:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <murpi> Eh?
11:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> I guess Im 'corneum says that a downside of accounts could be points being stolen by renaming someone's account without their permission
11:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Everyone elaborated, but it's all scattered around so you need to have been here for every discussion to know all the opinions. Even I don't remember who owns what argument anymore
11:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> But one major concern was namestealing, which we said we could handle with "steam-like" accounts where usernames and nicknames are separate. The counter to that is that then the accounts are pointless since it's too hard to identify who is real who is fake
11:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <murpi> I guess this depends on how accounts are implemented
11:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Another issue that comes up is legacy ranks. How do we attribute legacy ranks to accounts if we attribute them at all. Every single solution I came up with has a disadvantage. Though the most promising solution seems to be not attributing legacy ranks at all, but instead encouraging people to make new ones with accounts
11:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <murpi> ah well, thanks for opening the issue. 😄
11:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <murpi> oh heinrich opened the issue, oops
11:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> After that the arguments get a little less nuanced and thought out but privacy and ease of use sometimes get mentioned
11:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Most of my attempts at is has been thwarted by me wanting way too much, Zooko's Triangle starts to get in the way
11:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> blockchain is the solution to zooko's triangle!!1
11:29 <+ChillerDragon> blockchain so good
11:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> <a:aPES_WTFEyes:642733839973613598>
11:29 <+ChillerDragon> i went all in bitcoin yesterday
11:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> blockchain 😄
11:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> Why if its in a all time high
11:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> isn't bitcoin at an all time high rn?
11:29 <+ChillerDragon> ikr
11:29 <+ChillerDragon> yes!
11:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> Chillee pepeg
11:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> guess someone needs to pay the profits of the others
11:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> 😉
11:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Well you can indeed make a construct with blockchain that satisfies all 3 desired properties and thus I guess "refute" Zooko's Triangle
11:30 <+ChillerDragon> yes!
11:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> :monkalaugh:
11:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> So it is a solution, but definitely not a trivial one
11:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2 what was ur technicao aproach to accounts?
11:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> https://www.statista.com/statistics/647523/worldwide-bitcoin-blockchain-size/
11:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> it's 300 GB already
11:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> Shit mobile
11:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> (blockchain constructs are kinda cheating by skirting around "Secure" though, teeworlds is small enough that a Sybil attack is not that inconceivable e.g.)
11:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ryozuki I basically had asymmetric cryptography. It's Secure and Decentralized, but the Identifiers are not human meaningful
11:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> My idea was to rely on a local map that maps identifiers to names
11:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> Is it really worth to make it decentralized?
11:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> (and we also distribute a sort of address book so we are a central authority but as we distribute the address book, people don't need us to verify eachother)
11:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> the ideas sound really good!
11:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> more thought out than mine were, so far
11:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ryozuki I was kind of hoping to make it more palatable to the teeworlds people too, but I guess it's not a necessity. I had a centralized idea too. Basically just stealing kerberos
11:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> A simplified version of it is enough for us, so we'd only need to issue a sort of ticket proving that the client is who they say they are
11:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> (the ticket granting ticket construct in kerberos is mostly to do authorization, which is not really something we care about, in our construct every client would be authorized to play/log in on every server)
11:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> ((one problem with a central construct like this is that we can't guarantee that someone you meet on a non ddnet server is who they say they are, atleast not trivially))
11:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> (((because I didn't figure out how to efficiently do it doesn't mean it's impossible, but the best I could come up with was an n-way exchange of tickets)))
11:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Oh actually came up with one right now, the server could broadcast an encrypted blob per client, which can be submitted to our AS to check whether someone is who they say they are
11:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> (though the server can allow anyone on the server to impersonate another, now that I think about it)
11:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Designing Authentication Protocols are just too difficult 😛
12:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> is*?
12:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @heinrich5991 is* indeed
12:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> `[a-z]+s are` is just muscle memory
12:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I wonder if the brain utilizes state machines somewhere deep down 😛
12:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2 well i would parse that as `designing (x) is...`
12:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> :think_bot:
12:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ryozuki while reading I would too but while writing apparently my reflex to do `[a-z]+s are` is stronger than my actual english parsing subsystem
12:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> > english parsing subsystem
12:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> :POGGIES:
12:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> the context free (possibly even FSM?) muscle memory being faster to act than the probably turing complete english parser makes sense
12:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> cyberpunk 2077
12:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> real
12:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I doubt you can parse english with a pushdown automata
12:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I wonder if a computer can ever parse natural language. If you think about it the amount of things we can understand is baffling. A sentence can make no sense at all and we can still parse it
12:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> well the brain is rly complex
12:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> "100 Trillion Connections·
12:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> "100 Trillion Connections"
12:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> The future is in an NPU natural processing unit. Just a brain in a jar with a BCI
12:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> :monkalaugh:
12:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Tensor cores and stuff are just soo inefficient. Brains are sooo optimal
12:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> well
12:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> they are optimal for x things
12:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> but for example
12:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> you cant remember 100% of ur life
12:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> every detail
12:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i guess its a optimization itself that
12:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> It does all this with 20W
12:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> did u know we sense things in a logarithmic scale
12:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> thats why when ur older time goes faster
12:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> It'd make sense in some way
12:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://spectrum.ieee.org/podcast/biomedical/bionics/does-the-brain-work-logarithmically
12:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> > Does the Brain Work Logarithmically?
12:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> > New research suggests it does, when it’s the efficient way to process information
12:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2 imagine ur in danger and there are 90 tigers, if there were 91 u wouldnt even notice
12:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> but imagine there is 1 tiger
12:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> if another appears
12:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> u would be alarmed 2x
12:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> kinda
12:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> my explanation sucks
12:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> <a:monkaSteerS:785236868706861077>
12:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxb5lSPLy9c
12:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Ah I knew I read this somewhere before https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weber%E2%80%93Fechner_law
12:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> this video explains it
12:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> rly well
12:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> yea
12:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> This is also probably the reason we measure things that relate to our senses in log scale
12:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Like sound in decibels
12:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Or light intensity
12:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2 i found out the top 1 competitive coder in youtube
12:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97tieEKfvBs
12:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://codeforces.com/profile/tourist
12:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> this guy is insane
12:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> probs a genius
12:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> the video goes from ez things to things u wont understand
12:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> magic
12:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Depends on your definition of genius
12:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> he looks rly young to have studied a lot
12:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> idk
12:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Competitive math, competitive chess, competitive programming are all very impressive but they are soooo memory heavy
12:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Time constraints mean you need to have so many lookup tables drilled into your head
12:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> idk if all the contests are time constrained
12:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> are they?
12:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> And they prefer it that way btw, look how much more popular blitz is in chess, or how much more popular shorter form golfing became in the recent years
12:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> cmon
12:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> blitz is popular because ppl dont want to waste 8 hours in classical  chess
12:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> It looks extremely impressive when you instantly know that you need to use “x algorithm”
12:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i dont think its a fair comparision
12:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i doubt they know everything
12:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> or that every problem is not unique
12:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Honestly I prefer both playing and watching classical chess. It’s just so much of a hassle to know everything, you can’t follow anything in blitz without a commentator
12:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> And to even play blitz and not lose 100 games in a row you need to dish out the first 6-7 moves instantly and correctly
12:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> grandmasters play superbullet e.g 15 seconds
12:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> amazingf
12:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> doubt that you need to play the first 6-7 moves instantly and correctly in each of these 100 games @ blitz
12:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I can usually play/watch rapid when I’m at my peak awakeness and have coffee running through my veins
12:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/788009521439834122/unknown.png
12:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> is youtube down
12:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> ???
12:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> lol
12:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> doubt that it can be down globally
12:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> I don't want to click any of the videos on the yt front page
12:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @heinrich5991 well most of your opponents above a certain rating certainly will play openings optimally
12:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> but that loads, at least
12:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://www.youtube.com/ itself
12:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> doesnt load
12:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> @Learath2 doesn't really matter in blitz. you can be down 1 piece and still win
12:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> wtf
12:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> on private browsing it works
12:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> are you logged in in main?
12:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Well sure, but you are definitely at a massive disadvantage against someone who knows the lines
12:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> ok deleting all cookies fixed it
12:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> I'm not logged into yt
12:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/788009968527212575/unknown.png
12:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i cant sign in back
12:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> xd
12:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/788010018145828895/unknown.png
12:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> something is definitly happening at google
12:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> test
12:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> E.g. it’s extremely tough to play (IMO) queens gambit declined for me on blitz
12:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Took me like 10 games of queens gambit to decide that I just don’t have the processing power to play qgd in blitz 😛
12:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> google meet down, ppl doing online school :monkalaugh:
12:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> But I almost always will decline in classical or rapid since I have time to think the moves
12:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> declining is the way
12:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> taking puts u in a disadvantage later
12:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> queens gambit is not rly a gambit due to that
12:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> xd
12:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Accepting is much more viable for me in blitz as it’s more straightforward to play
12:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> But ignore chess for a while, it’s the same in competitive programming and competitive math
12:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> You need to recognize the questions instantly, you need to instantly refer to your book of tricks to simplify the problem and you need to do that while actually starting to lay down the scaffolding for your solution
12:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> (I mean if you want to be competitive at all, you can just have fun and/or learn something and take it slow)
12:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> It’s a different set of skills is my point, one requires more problem solving and the other great memory
13:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> there may still be problems that u cant solve with ur book of tricks
13:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> and i think there is where smart ppl come to play
13:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Not in competitive anything, you can’t expect people to creatively solve problems in limited time. Maybe sometimes they tack on an extremely difficult question that is more suited for this but that’s only for people that are insanely smart, they both need the book of tricks to get thru the other questions AND have time to think about the extreme question
13:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Math is better at this (probably because competitive math has been around longer)
13:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Anyway, as I said at the beginning, depends on how you define genius. I associate it more with the creative process (though that might have to do with the turkish word for it having hidden connotations)
13:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Mh can't upload images, discord is having trouble too, a massive botnet flexing probably
13:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> The api response time is all the way up to 130ms
13:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <timakro> Is there a clever bitmasking trick for todays part 2?
15:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> yes, teehistorian recordings are not something that people normally work with
15:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> yes, but teehistorian recordings are not something that people normally work with
15:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <deen> Learath2 scans through all of them for some statistics
15:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> still, i think blockchain is a fail actually
15:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> it's not robust solution
15:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> why is it not robust?
15:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> because it's a pack of data with endlessly increasing size
15:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> i mean there are some usecases where it makes sense, but in Bitcoin for example: why do you need to care about some 10 years old transactions that no longer matter?
15:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> The 10 year old chain is what creates security
15:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> There are already attempts at making it more usable, like lighter wallets, but if the chain is gone there is no security at all
15:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> yes, but as an end-user, you want transfer some money and not waste 300 GB of your storage
15:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Which is where lighter wallets like electrum come in
15:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> isn't that just a workaround?
15:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> well yes but it's the only way this whole thing works
15:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> it's either the huge chain securing us or trusting a central authority to secure us
15:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I mean as far as we know for now, maybe someone will come up with something even more clever
15:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> so we should use some centralized systems instead for now
15:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> but Bitcoin is a nice experiment
15:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> well there is more value to bitcoin than just as an experiment
15:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> it's very hard to trace cryptocurrency transactions, it gives people atleast a bit of privacy
15:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> bitcoin is not the best at privacy but you still can't know the recepient or sender of any funds, barring out of band attacks like forcing exchanges to comply by using powers of government
15:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> i think it's like Tor - used mostly for illegal stuff so when you try to use it, you're instantly suspicious
15:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Good thing there is no way to prove you use either Tor or Bitcoin as long as you do it correctly
15:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Besides this "suspicion" and "stigma" is pushed by people that have great interest in these technologies failing. e.g. the banking industry, governments, intelligence agencies, huge datafarms like google/amazon. So you are in a sense right that these things will most probably never be used widely
15:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> If they were used widely it would be disaster for all of the above
15:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> well, both Tor and Bitcoin has significant disadvantages
15:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> just imagine playing Teeworlds over Tor 😄
15:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> *have
15:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Tor I see, bitcoin I don't with light wallets the storage requirement is minimal, with lightning transaction times are not an issue
15:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> Bitcoin already requires terawatts of energy to do seemingly pointless things
15:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> all those standard bank systems written in Java are still much more effective probably
15:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Hm, the energy usage is an interesting point but a comparison to traditional banking is not really fair, since well there are "significant disadvantages" to using traditional banking
15:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> e.g. trusting that the "banks don't fail", trusting that the bank will give you your money back, trusting that the bank will let you use your money as you want, letting the bank know of every transaction you make (and by virtue of the bank the government)
15:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> yes, that's true
15:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> before you say that's all conspiracy, it's all happening in turkey, there is now soft capital control in place, I can't take out more than a certain amount in usd or eur without paying a decent chunk of tax
15:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> or lebanon, where people were limited to 100$ a week during the harshest part of the crisis there, or in greece where the banks literally ran out of money
15:49 <+ChillerDragon> well regarding privacy when it comes to bitcoin is also meh. Because in the end most people buy btc over companys or have their wallets in the cloud. And the goverment can force companys to collect user data.
15:49 <+ChillerDragon> blockchain.com for example forces you to upload a document and shit before you can trade
15:50 <+ChillerDragon> and france also went wild on regulations for crypto
15:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> ChillerDragon well you can always mix up your bitcoin or use another coin which does have great privacy properties like zcash or monero
15:50 <+ChillerDragon> yea
15:50 <+ChillerDragon> i guess
15:51 <+ChillerDragon> i actually do not know how zcash and monero enforces priuvacy so i cant comment on that
15:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> well it's very complicated math that goes waay above my head aswell, but I trust that people have checked that the  claims are not insane
15:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> You know how people get about other people saying something wrong on the internet
15:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Comrade> being one of those math/crypto magicians must be fun 😄
15:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> that is one of the few skills I'm not really jealous of, idk I don't think I enjoy the theory part of math
15:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> it's soo detail heavy, especially discrete mathematics, so many edge cases to consider
15:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Or analysis where you have to consider things like "everywhere continuous but nowhere differentiable functions", I mean sure they exist and all but what is the point, it's so academic
15:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Fractal curves exist irl even, but are they reallly necessary to do anything in real life? You can approximate things quite well, infinite precision is rarely needed
16:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> idk if fun but i would be proud of knowing such stuff
16:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i heard its true that bitcoin is rly bad for the enviroment due to energy cost
16:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> > the environment, with areas that use mostly fossil fuels for electricity, such as Inner Mongolia, China, contributing more to the carbon footprint than regions using renewable resources, such as Sichuan, China.
16:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> its mainly from miners and heavily depends where they are located tho
16:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2 do u need to keep mining for bitcoin to keep working?
16:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/11/191120080246.htm
16:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Bitcoin uses like 50% of all datacenter electricity iirc, that’s just insane 😛
16:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Yeah if noone mines bitcoin can’t work
16:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> meh
16:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> is the market cap for euro and dollar always increasing too?
16:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Mines are the ones that secure the blocks, and for their reward they get transaction fees for the block + the miner reward
16:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> As the miner reward decreases, there is actually a limit to how many bitcoin there will be in circulation ever
16:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Euro and dollar can be arbitrarily printed by the eu and the us, but both have good incentive to keep inflation low
16:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> yeah
16:34 <+ChillerDragon> well teeworlds city servers also keep printing money and infaltion isnt too bad :D
16:34 <+ChillerDragon> but i rly like the idea of bitcoins having a limit and also keep in mind over time more and more bitcoins will be lost forever due to ppl lossing their keys 
16:35 <+ChillerDragon> so it is unlikley that there is classical inflation 
16:35 <+ChillerDragon> as long as ppl believe in it the value can only increase
16:35 <+ChillerDragon> it doesnt matter how many ppl believe in dollar or euros if the goverments keep printing it it loses value
16:36 <+ChillerDragon> someone mentioned lighting network i havent rly looked into bitcoin since the last hype :D so idk what it is as far as i remember bitcoin was pretty useless as payment due to the low capacity of transactions possible
16:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> ChillerDragon the value of bitcoin depends on the value of euro or dollar
16:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Well both traditional money and bitcoin have value because we all collectively say it has value
16:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> There is a demand for us dollars by other governments and businesses because they both allow trade with us companies and they are a relatively stable currency (a store of value)
16:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Ditto for euros. And only the first one for the chinese yen. However, bitcoin has no real demand outside people messing around with it
16:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> If everyone accepted bitcoin, then it’d have no dependence on the euro and dollar. Though that’d require governments to tax people in bitcoin, which they won’t ever do because they stand to lose sooooo much from losing control over the flow of money
16:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Btw the lightning network is a pretty neat idea, in which the bitcoin network is only used to settle the transactions every once in a while between large nodes. So it’s sort of a decentralized version of the banking and payment systems used in traditional banking
17:07 <+ChillerDragon> hm so less live syncing i see
17:07 <+ChillerDragon> doesnt it make sibling attacks easier?
17:07 <+ChillerDragon> and what even is a large node?
17:07 <+ChillerDragon> isnt every node of the same size
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> You mean a sybil attack? For that you need to control a large amount of full nodes. The lightning network is built on top of the bitcoin network, it’s not the same nodes
17:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> ‘Larger’ would have been a better description. The idea is that A and B open a channel, they both put x bitcoin into it. A smart contract chain guarantees that either side would be paid off in case of one of them not complying. Now since the “trust” is established, they can instantly make transactions of up to 2x bitcoin between them, instantly. Say I want to send you money with lightning, but we don’t have a channel yet, the net
17:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> How the network is designed is really beyond the point. It could be a mesh, it could become a hub and spoke network. What matters is that the transactions are instant and only depend on the bitcoin network for safety
17:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> ethereum did some nice stuff, to combat the energy intensiveness of its network
18:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie> i need friends
18:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie> Good night
18:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> hello friend
18:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I don't feel like ordering food and I don't feel like cooking. Do I just starve?
18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <TsFreddie> Instant noodles
18:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> That sounds like a great idea actually, hope I have some in the cabinet
18:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I only seem to have a packet of instant ramen lying around and I don't have anything to top it with
18:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> untopped instant ramen could be like the saddest meal known to mankind
18:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> okay maybe after plain toast
19:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Chairn> bowl of cereals can also do a good meal 😉
19:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> cereals ❤️