00:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] also consoles arent for gamers xD 00:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] It could invalidate older ranks 00:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Jupstar ✪ you dont need to use the ddnet client for the fix 00:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] It definitely isn't a cheat as it's explicitly added by the developers of the game 00:00 <+Konsti> its a cheat 00:00 <+Konsti> for all maps 00:01 <+Konsti> because u make them easier 00:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] so when ddnet adds a full aim assist u wouldnt call it a cheat? 00:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] bcs its official 00:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] if it's intended by the game, like e.g. the one overwatch character 00:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Jupstar ✪ it wouldn't be a cheat, but we'd never add it, because it'd remove all skill from the game 00:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] sure, it's not a cheat 00:01 <+Ryozuki> konsti dont be stupid, u now say this dummy is a cheat but when u abuse shit on a minecraft server its legit added by devs? 00:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] this change is quite similar actually, it's just that the skill it removes is muuuch smaller then an aimbot 00:02 <+Konsti> minecraft is a completely different game and for technical crafters its based on bugs 00:02 <+Ryozuki> blablabla 00:02 <+Ryozuki> invalid point 00:02 <+Ryozuki> and vanilla client sucks 00:02 <+Ryozuki> nobody should use it 00:02 <+Ryozuki> for ddnet specially 00:02 <+Ryozuki> so u talking shit 00:02 <+Konsti> be serious please 00:02 <+Ryozuki> i am very serious 00:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] "The rules infringed may be explicit, or they may be from an unwritten code of conduct based on morality, ethics or custom, making the identification of cheating conduct a potentially subjective process" wikipedia 00:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] 00:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] and thats the problem 00:03 <+Ryozuki> ddnet developes the client and the server, therefore ddnet decides whats cheating and what not 00:03 <+Ryozuki> simple 00:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] if tour de france allows dopping its still cheating 00:03 <+Konsti> its not about the definition 00:03 <+Konsti> its just unfair 00:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] if it officially allows doping 00:03 <+Konsti> also heinrich is not admin 00:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] no, it's not cheating anymore 00:03 <+Ryozuki> you are the one who thinks dummy is unfair 00:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] It's by definition not cheating 00:03 <+Ryozuki> first time i hear it 00:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] it is, bcs its still a question of ethics 00:04 <+Konsti> ryozuki watch my player page and say that again 00:04 <+Ryozuki> i say it 100 times 00:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] Why does ethics come into the discussion even? 00:04 <+Ryozuki> 2^64 times 00:04 <+Ryozuki> ye 00:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] bcs u say u want to relay on the definition of cheating 00:04 <+Ryozuki> why ethics 00:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] and thats what i gave u 00:04 <+Ryozuki> ethics only regulate poor minds 00:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] I could say I feel it's unethical to only let pro's recover from failed hammerflies 00:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] thus recovering from a failed hammerfly is cheating 00:05 <+Konsti> wtf+# 00:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] thus we must remove that aswell 00:05 <+Konsti> its unethical that only pros can finish insane maps 00:05 <+Konsti> lmaooo 00:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] see now u are argumenting against ur own facts 00:05 <+Ryozuki> Konsti hooking throught a corner is cheating in vanilla, since it is a vanilla bug 00:05 <+Ryozuki> it is the foundation of ddnet tho 00:05 <+Ryozuki> what do u say here 00:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] I mean it's unfair that 0.001% of the players get to always survive failed flies 00:05 <+Konsti> ryozuki thats my argument 00:05 <+Ryozuki> no 00:05 <+Ryozuki> u dont have any argument 00:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Jupstar ✪ You are the one that wants to argue on ethics 00:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] I'm saying if it doesn't break an explicit rule, it's not cheating 00:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] you are the one that said, u want to stick to the definition of cheating 00:06 <+Konsti> learath u just said that it is a skill 00:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] so i stayed with it and gave u the contra argument 00:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] now u say weird stuff 00:06 <+Ryozuki> what contra argument 00:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] apparently there was a rate limit for inputs, but it was removed to make hammer-fly out of freeze possible (by spamming I suppose): 6735dce1af 00:06 <+Ryozuki> cheating is defined by the server owner 00:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] My definition of cheating doesn't rely on any subjective morality 00:06 <+Ryozuki> i think its pretty simple to understand 00:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] I think the sanest and simplest definition of cheating is "breaking a rule" 00:07 <+Konsti> neither heinrich nor learath are server owners 00:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] well who makes the rule in a community driven game? 00:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] I just pointed out that if you bring in subjective reasoning and morality into it, then I could similarly argue that this being possible at all is unfair to anyone that can't have it due to bad internet 00:08 <+Ryozuki> oh noes i used dummy on ddnet, lets post it on twitter so that people that are moraly sided with me can report it to :DDD 00:08 <+Konsti> why not just ask the community when trying to apply a change against their wantings 00:08 <+Konsti> ryozuki i dont say dummy is a cheat but yeah keep going on that 00:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] Konsti you aren't the community 00:09 <+Ryozuki> of it improves the gameplay by not depending on network stability im sure most people will agree 00:09 <+Ryozuki> if* 00:09 <+Konsti> aim assist too improves gameplay 00:09 <+Konsti> this change is unfair 00:09 <+Ryozuki> for you 00:09 <+Konsti> for all who trained skill 00:10 <+Ryozuki> let the poor people with poor internet play in peace 00:10 <+Ryozuki> stop being selfish 00:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] but it's not unfair that people that don't live in europe? 00:10 <+Konsti> yeah its not 00:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] but it's not unfair to people that don't live in europe? 00:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] This is why bringing subjective things like "fairness" that is not well-defined into arguments is stupid 00:10 <+Konsti> i cant play on chile server, thats unfair 00:11 <+Ryozuki> ur lucky u live in germany 00:11 <+Ryozuki> and u have a server there 00:11 <+Ryozuki> some ppl dont live near one 00:11 <+Ryozuki> have u ever considered it 00:11 <+Konsti> everyone can advertise for a community 00:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] You decide what's fair using your own moral compass 00:11 <+Ryozuki> no 00:11 <+Ryozuki> not everyone can donate 500€ like you 00:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] fact is u are changing the "rules" to make things easier, u are cheating on the pros xD 00:11 <+Ryozuki> u rly live in a bubble 00:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] No rules are being changed @Jupstar ✪ 00:11 <+Konsti> ur living in spain 00:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] well then its cheating 00:11 <+Ryozuki> i have no problems with my internet 00:11 <+Ryozuki> but im thinking about other people 00:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] bcs currently u can't just press hammer 00:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] can we pls go back to moves that get affected by this change and discuss them? 00:12 <+Ryozuki> im lucky to have a good internet now, but i know the struggles of 1mb/s 00:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Jupstar ✪ yes you can if you are fast and lucky enough 00:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] thats something different tho 00:12 <+Konsti> yeah lucky 00:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Patiga anything involving a frozen tee getting hammered 00:12 <+Konsti> or just get the feeling for the timing 00:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] to be honest there is no point discussing this at all before fixing the deepfly issue 00:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] okay, newest test results: 00:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] deepfly is also possible with scrollwheel 00:13 <+Konsti> i see more and more peopling getting this hammer fine within the normal run 00:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] it'll objectively make most all deepfly parts cheatable 00:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] so I can do deepfly with a non-dummy 00:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] on ddnet 00:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] right now 00:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] @heinrich5991 I guess what they want is some way to stop that instead of letting everyone do it 00:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] in fact we don't know that they haven't been cheated, although we could try to get teehistorian involved for that 00:14 <+Konsti> pretty much yeah 00:15 <+Konsti> lmao 00:15 <+Konsti> u always think teehistorian would exist since 2013 right 00:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] I don't really see what the argument is except that we are "cheating" the pro's out of a move exclusive to them 00:15 <+Ryozuki> test 00:15 <+Konsti> luckily not, otherwise u could have find all my cheated ranks 00:15 <+Ryozuki> ur so cool konsti 00:16 <+Konsti> thx 00:16 <+Ryozuki> Konsti we could also find u edating some tw egirls right 00:16 <+Konsti> lmao no 00:16 <+Konsti> u wont 00:16 <+Ryozuki> e.e 00:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Patiga it also kinda makes all deepfly parts cheatable 00:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] can't ddnet just make a test server with that change 00:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] they're "cheatable" like that today 00:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] that would be the easiest way to get a feeling for the change 00:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] @heinrich5991 yes but it requires hardware or software mods 00:17 <+Ryozuki> whats wrong with being cheatable now, people will just make new ranks 00:17 <+Ryozuki> and it will settle on that 00:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] unlocked scroll wheels are not a hardware mod 00:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] they're common 00:17 <+Ryozuki> its like when on mario they find a super weird bug and they improve time 00:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] or at least not rare 00:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] well it's special hardware required 00:17 <+Ryozuki> everyone else doesi t then 00:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] yes 00:17 <+Ryozuki> ppls could just auto hot key 00:18 <+Ryozuki> or whathever 00:18 * Konsti slaps Ryozuki around a bit with a large fishbot 00:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] yea, but that can go into cheating territory 00:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] not all gaming communities approve of that 00:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] however I have not heard of people calling scroll wheel cheating methods 00:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] if every pro has to cheat to get a better time right now, why not just implement it in the client in a sane way? 00:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] not even the client, the server 00:19 <+Ryozuki> Konsti xd 00:19 <+Konsti> mechanics =| cheat 00:19 <+Ryozuki> =| 00:19 <+Ryozuki> so u want to OR equal 00:19 <+Konsti> xd 00:19 <+Ryozuki> xd 00:19 <+Konsti> u 00:19 <+Ryozuki> u 00:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] @heinrich5991 maybe you can even get it just with a standard scrollwheel, it's enough for bunnyhopping in cs which I think is also a couple frames at most 00:20 <+Ryozuki> !help 00:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] I can try it without unlocking, let's check 00:20 <+Ryozuki> !ddnetpeak 00:20 <@Nimda> Current players on DDNet : 129 00:20 <@Nimda> Current DDNet peak : 1854 users online at 2018-08-15 21:58:02 00:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] OMG 00:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] xd 00:21 <+Ryozuki> wtf 00:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] it even works without unlocked scroll wheel 00:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] 😄 00:21 <+Ryozuki> heinrich5991 saying omg 00:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] You can, can't you? 😄 00:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] 😄 00:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] 😄 00:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yeah guessed that 00:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] xd 00:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] i mean in the end we can also say some mouse manifacturers have macros in their drivers to allow fast clicking one button, and you could also build a mouse to have it, so yes, u can say nothing is cheating 00:21 <+Ryozuki> Konsti whats going on 00:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] at this point 00:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] just merge it 00:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] 😛 00:21 <+Ryozuki> u got overexcited 00:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] ye 00:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] merge it 00:21 <+Ryozuki> lets think it better 00:21 <+Ryozuki> xD 00:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] not immediately merge it obv 00:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] test it first 00:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] but still 00:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] well it's officially possible for anyone to cheat any deepfreeze part, just by doing `bind mwheelup +fire;` 00:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] i want to see you aiming and moving the mouse wheel 00:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] the whole time 00:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] btw heinrich, i didnt find any answer to my question: Are all bugs with the new stoppers fixed? Could you add them to 0.7? 00:22 <+Konsti> new stoppers mwat 00:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Jupstar ✪ you can at the very least fly directly up 00:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] `bind mousewheelup +fire;` 00:23 <+Ryozuki> !botstats 00:23 <@Nimda> Uptime: 6 hours, 44 minutes and 42 seconds. Memory: 2.39 MB (2.54 MB max). SQL: 1694 queries total (0.07 q/s). Jobs: 0 (0 max). Timers: 7. Servers: 2, Channels: 3, Users: 24. 00:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] so no need to merge it right 00:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] it already is possible 😄 00:23 * Konsti slaps Ryozuki around a bit with a large fishbot 00:23 * Konsti slaps Ryozuki around a bit with a large fishbot 00:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] but then it'll be possible in sane way 00:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] @heinrich5991 another feasible change would be to drop some input if people are spamming it? 00:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] see, same argument 00:23 <+Ryozuki> Konsti whats the cmd for that 00:23 <+Ryozuki> i forgot 00:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] as merging it 00:24 <+Konsti> !slap 00:24 <+Ryozuki> !slap Konsti 00:24 <+Konsti> xD 00:24 <+Ryozuki> oh 00:24 <+Ryozuki> u got hexchat 00:24 <+Ryozuki> nobo 00:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] @heinrich5991 ? 00:24 <+Ryozuki> weechat best 00:24 <+Konsti> u 00:24 <+Ryozuki> let me search my scripts 00:24 <+Konsti> just click on my name 00:24 <+Konsti> and press slap 00:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Jupstar ✪ weren't you the one that said it allows cheating because we are changing the rules? 00:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] it still does 00:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] Turns out we aren't even changing anything from the status quo 00:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] currently u cant just hold mouse click 00:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] so whats ur arugment again? 00:25 <+Ryozuki> Konsti slap me 00:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Jupstar ✪ boi i dont want a game where everyone kills their mousewheels, thats no fun at all o.o 00:25 * Konsti slaps Ryozuki around a bit with a large fishbot 00:25 * Ryozuki gives Konsti a clout round the head with a fresh copy of WeeChat 00:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] @fokkonaut I'm not sure if I have fun porting every change to 0.7 tbh 😛 00:25 <+Konsti> HAX 00:25 <+Ryozuki> im not using hexchat i told u 00:25 <+Ryozuki> ez 00:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] still no arugment @Patiga 00:25 * Ryozuki gives Konsti a hearty slap 00:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] ??? 00:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] I don't fell like replying to this circular argument anymore 00:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] where is that an argument? 00:26 * Ryozuki would slap Konsti, but is not being violent today 00:26 * Ryozuki slaps Konsti's bottom and grins cheekily 00:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] bring objective arguments 00:26 * Ryozuki slaps Konsti with a large smelly trout 00:26 <+Ryozuki> Konsti hehe mine is better 00:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] instead of your subjective ones 00:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] @heinrich5991 at least this one, its a quite big one, dont wanna mess it up. Could you do it? 00:26 <+Konsti> slap harder 00:26 * Ryozuki slaps Konsti a few times 00:26 * Ryozuki gives Konsti a clout round the head with a fresh copy of WeeChat 00:26 * Ryozuki dusts off a kitchen towel and slaps it at Konsti 00:26 * Ryozuki likes slapping people and randomly picks Konsti to slap 00:26 <+Konsti> :troll: 00:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] @fokkonaut have you tried whether a simple cherry-pick works? 00:26 <+Ryozuki> :konsti: 00:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] I am not at home 00:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] Cant do that right now 00:27 <+Ryozuki> lets forget about 0.7 00:27 <+Ryozuki> lets release on steam 00:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] btw @Learath2 i never said im against it, i just want to clearify what is changing, and that its not a simple change 00:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] lets forget about ryozuki 00:27 <@heinrich5991> Ryozuki: I'd be in for that 00:27 <+Ryozuki> yes 00:27 <+Ryozuki> it would bring new players 00:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] release ddnet? 00:27 <+Ryozuki> more joy 00:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] this change allows cheating -> I say it's not cheating -> you bring up some subjective "cheating" -> I point out that subjectively the entire thing even being possible could be classified as cheating -> you say changing the rules itself is cheating -> I say it doesn't even change the status quo -> back to the beginning 00:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] that was just ur arugment with cheating 00:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] this won't end and I hope to sleep tonight 00:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] i even said its a question of what the community accepts 00:28 <+Ryozuki> Learath2 sleep 4 the weak 00:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] interested in me rephrasing the argument, @Jupstar ✪ ? 00:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] go ahead 00:29 <+Ryozuki> Konsti ah u using webchat 00:29 <+Ryozuki> arent you on linux? use a proper client like a real gnu/linux user 00:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] I bet Konsti is a mirc user 00:30 <+Ryozuki> he is using web irc 00:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Jupstar ✪ so the argument goes like this: it is currently possible to do this mechanic on a normal scroll wheel. even I can do that. as konsti attested, I'm not a particular pro player. the thing the change does is allowing this with something else than a scroll wheel 00:30 * Ryozuki slaps Konsti's bottom and grins cheekily 00:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] the game mechanics aren't affected by that, only whether the player uses the scroll wheel or another key to do the input 00:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] and still u need ur mouse wheel 00:31 <+Ryozuki> we the devil for expecting u to have a mouse wheel 00:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] its just a question of if we want to make it so much easier 00:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] yes. allowing "jump" to be bound to your "mike mute" button, wouldn't be a gameplay change either 00:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] it's not hard 00:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] try it 00:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] yes 00:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] wanna go on a server? 00:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] i believe u 00:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] but u cant just press the key 00:31 * Konsti slaps Ryozuki around a bit with a large fishbot 00:31 * Ryozuki gives Konsti a clout round the head with a fresh copy of WeeChat 00:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] so there is a difference 00:31 <+Ryozuki> :p 00:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] yes. but we call it so small that it doesn't matter. like binding "jump" to the "mute mike" button 00:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] that's also a difference 00:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] besides I got baited by "[1:22 AM] Jupstar ✪: i want to see you aiming and moving the mouse wheel", just like with bunny hopping you only need to turn the mouse wheel for a small interval of time 00:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] but a very small one 00:32 <+Konsti> nah, i think ill get away from debian again 00:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] yeah, but for ur argument u dont need to change the server 00:32 <+Ryozuki> go to arch 00:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] thats the difference 00:32 <+Konsti> yeah, i had arch some months ago 00:32 <+Ryozuki> Konsti i maintain ddnet on arch xD 00:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] bcs its no gameplay changer 00:32 <+Konsti> was good 00:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Jupstar ✪ I can do this chagne client side as well if you want 00:32 <+Konsti> i mean amazing 00:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] it also works 00:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] but it's coded more nicely on the server 00:32 <+Ryozuki> i got arch on lvm2 on luks 00:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] thats the same thing actually 00:33 <+Ryozuki> so nsa can only get into my pc beating me to death 00:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] its curretnly also possible without changing the client 00:33 <+Learath2> Ryozuki: do you have your root encrypted? 00:33 <+Ryozuki> everything less boot 00:33 <+Ryozuki> i was 2 lazy for that 00:33 <+Ryozuki> but its possible 00:33 <+Ryozuki> its not like it leaks anything 00:34 <+Konsti> i have a 64 char crypt key, so if police steal my SSD they gonna get nothing 00:34 <+Ryozuki> Konsti they can beat u 00:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] not really. you have to have some kind of unencrypted boot stu b 00:34 <+Ryozuki> and im sure u would tell 00:34 <+Konsti> im living in germany 00:34 <+Ryozuki> there is a xkcd 00:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] as i said, im not against it, idc about ddrace so much since i mostly play gores 00:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] 00:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] but its a change that makes things easier, and you should accept getting positive and negative feedback, bcs it deffs removes some kind of skill 00:34 <+Learath2> Ryozuki: I guess they could always knock you out and dip your entire computer in liquid nitrogen before taking it away 00:34 <+Ryozuki> Konsti im sure if what u had is of national security they wouldnt care 00:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] no, it doesn't 00:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] I can do it easily 00:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] without training 00:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] that's not "skill" you're talking about 00:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] but do that in mid race while aiming 00:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] no problem 00:34 <+Ryozuki> https://www.xkcd.com/538/ Konsti 00:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Jupstar ✪ whats your ingame name? 00:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] see learath2's response 00:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] bunny hoppers need to do that 00:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] @fokkonaut keks 00:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] i know they do that too, but that doesnt mean that valve just makes it easy 00:35 <+Ryozuki> Konsti u should use a proper irc client and OTR 00:35 <+Konsti> lmao xD 00:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] valve limited the speed gained by bunnyhopping 00:36 <+Ryozuki> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-the-Record_Messaging 00:36 <+Konsti> i would just talk myself out of it 00:36 <+Ryozuki> xd 00:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Learath2 yeah but why dont they just make the first hopp easy as fuck 00:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] and they added a ridiculous amount of quadratic drag 00:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] so not only pros can do it xD 00:36 <+Ryozuki> Learath2 not rly 00:36 <+Ryozuki> Learath2 people now speedrun half life 2 on new engine backwards 00:36 <+Ryozuki> cuz its not limited backwards 00:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] Oh yeah I saw that 00:37 <+Ryozuki> and half life 2 is broken anyway 00:37 <+Ryozuki> out of bounds stuff 00:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] it was not only limited, each jump you gained your own speed on top since that was supposed to fix it (well that attempt worked for forwards hopping), tho backwards hopping was fixed a long time ago 00:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Jupstar ✪ they made sure being even amazing at bunny hopping doesn't matter anymore 00:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] But even from the very beginning I admitted this can be fixed with punishing the player 00:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] well i cant say how hard it is aiming and mouse wheeling todo that jump bcs i rarely play that game, tho its probs harder then holding space while aiming xD 00:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] You don't have to roll the mousewheel around like crazy 00:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] you only need to roll it during contact time 00:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] yeah but then they could just implement a "rejump" function if all this doesnt matter 00:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] they could and it wouldn't matter too much as everyone would be given the same function 00:41 <+Ryozuki> Traceback (most recent call last): 00:41 <+Ryozuki> File "", line 4, in script_python_eval 00:41 <+Ryozuki> File "", line 1 00:41 <+Ryozuki> print([x**2 for x in [2,3,4,5]) 00:41 <+Ryozuki> ^ 00:41 <+Ryozuki> SyntaxError: invalid syntax 00:41 <+Ryozuki> ups 00:41 <+Ryozuki> xd 00:41 <+Ryozuki> [4, 9, 16, 25] 00:41 <+Ryozuki> ez 00:41 <+Learath2> Why would you do this to us? 00:41 <+Ryozuki> im bored 00:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] well and there comes my sentence into play, where the real question is, does the community want it, bcs u will obtain negative and positive feedback 00:42 <+Ryozuki> and u knwo this convo wont end anywere 00:42 <+Learath2> map(lambda x: x**2, [2, 3, 4, 5]) better 00:42 <+Ryozuki> what no 00:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] if all pro players from csgo would shittalk it, valve probs would rethink it xD 00:42 <+Ryozuki> list comprenhension is beutiful 00:42 <+Ryozuki> and u should use it 00:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] I'd guess a similar vocal amount of people wanted the bunnyhop back in cs:go ^^ 00:43 <+Learath2> I wonder why python stream functions are implemented in such an ugly way :( 00:43 <+Ryozuki> heinrich5991 bunnyhop on csgo affects competitive matchmaking i think 00:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] @heinrich5991 yeah i agree, but that again is a physic change 00:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] like the nade thing 00:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] one is input other the game itself 00:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] yes 00:43 <+Learath2> [2, 3, 4, 5].map would look so much more beautiful 00:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] i know this topic is too subjective too discuss 00:44 <+Learath2> also the same thing with len()... 00:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] I feel like with your definitions, it would be too hard to discuss whether 1 + 1 = 2 00:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] 😛 00:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] no 00:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] what axioms are we talking about? 00:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] what is 1, +, =, 2? 00:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] about what should stay skill and what not 00:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] the other thing is deterministic things 00:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] ofc i can program a bot helping me with everything 00:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] doesnt change some axioms 00:45 <+Learath2> this change is by my (and I think heinrich's) definition of physics not something about the physics of the game 00:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] i never said that 00:45 * Ryozuki would slap Learath2, but is not being violent today 00:46 <+Ryozuki> good u come to irc side, discord bad 00:46 <+Ryozuki> totally not related with me being banned 00:46 <+Learath2> Ryozuki: have you tried being nice to people? 00:46 <+Ryozuki> Learath2 its tough 00:46 <+Ryozuki> :p 00:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] `[12:53 AM] Jupstar ✪: but how can u discover new things if it doesnt change the physic ;D` 00:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] see the sentence above 00:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] u wont discover new things in that terms 00:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] u will just make it more easy 00:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] even konsti said that xD 00:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] its possible so its just a matter of tryhard 00:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Jupstar ✪ wanna make a bet? 00:47 <+Ryozuki> why not make it easier 00:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] @heinrich5991 wait 00:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] dont say anything 00:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] my bet is most dont care 00:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] 5€ we will discover a new gameplay mechanic after this change 00:48 <+Ryozuki> only crybabies like Konsti complain cuz they want to be special 00:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] winner donates 5€ to ddnet 00:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] *loser 00:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] @heinrich5991 but what is a new gameplay mechanic? 00:48 <+Ryozuki> ddnet is not accepting donations right now :p 00:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] if its possible right now already 00:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] I mean it's not that hard to imagine a new part that could use this mechanic 00:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Jupstar ✪ something that's not known today 00:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] like kintafly was discovered 00:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] mhh 00:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] or the hammer through freeze 00:49 <+Ryozuki> Learath2 lot of tees in freeze, one outside hammers the first in the row the other hammers the other 00:49 <+Ryozuki> this in one line 00:49 <+Ryozuki> like a domino 00:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] in what time frame 00:49 <+Ryozuki> i can see it 00:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Jupstar ✪ one month after the fix 00:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] bcs in the end i could say someone would have discovered anyway xD 00:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] ah 00:49 <+Ryozuki> if thats how i understood it 00:49 <+Learath2> Ryozuki: and that's the most obvious 00:49 <+Ryozuki> ez 00:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] the question is, are u now actively searching for it xD 00:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] no, I won't search for it or encourage others except by them having read our conversation 00:50 <+Ryozuki> hello others 00:50 <+Ryozuki> i encourage you 00:50 <+Ryozuki> to search 00:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] and how can we know noone has discovered it yet? XD 00:50 <+Ryozuki> good lurker on irc logs i know ur there 00:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] because it gets popularized 00:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] like kinta 00:50 <+Learath2> I'm more concerned about all the current deepfreeze parts thoaugh 00:50 <+Learath2> though* 00:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] so u mean a useful new mechanic? 00:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] yes 00:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] useful for finishing maps 00:51 <+Ryozuki> even if not useful 00:51 <+Ryozuki> like towers 00:51 <+Learath2> how will the knowledge of the mousewheel thing affect those maps? 00:51 <+Ryozuki> it gets popular 00:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] yeah well t0 tricks are obvious 00:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] so no, i wont bet heinrich 00:51 <+Learath2> we need to decide whether this thing is allowed at all or not, fast before people start making ranks with them 00:51 <+Ryozuki> most stuff comes from t0 00:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] 5 players on a tower 00:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] @Jupstar ✪ so you agree that new tricks will be discovered? 00:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] and u can easily skip any freeze size 00:51 <+Learath2> well I guess we could look for them in teehistorian 00:51 <+Ryozuki> Learath2 konsti complainig a lot now but im sure he will be the first to search for new stuff 00:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] @heinrich5991 i agree that u can easily make a 64 player tower to skip a 62 tile freeze 00:52 <+Ryozuki> like a excited little kid 00:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] or something like that 00:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] ok, let's say except for spamming tees 00:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] is that fine by you? 00:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] like having a regular amount of tees, 2-4 00:52 <+Learath2> Ryozuki: I think he'll genuinely be a little saddened 00:52 <+Ryozuki> nah 00:52 <+Ryozuki> he will ofc speak u did wrong omg 00:52 <+Ryozuki> but he continues to play 00:53 <+Learath2> If we leave this in without merging the patch tho, I'm expecting konsti to use his mousewheel a lot :P 00:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] yes 00:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] @heinrich5991 the problem is, even with 4 tees that are able to hammer simmultaniously is already a huge difference, ofc it will change the game by alot 00:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] so you agree 00:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] nice 00:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] yes 00:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] i agree that it makes these things easier 00:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] but not that its impossible now 00:54 <+Learath2> they are only possible in the light of the mousewheel trick 00:55 <+Learath2> even though the hammer from freeze is possible, it's very hard to time 00:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] has the hammer no cooldown at all? 00:55 <+Learath2> I haven't really seen anyone pull it off with any level of consistency except for situations involving hammerflies 00:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] i honsetly wonder if that mouse wheel technique is a 100% garantuee 00:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] we tried it 00:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] yes 00:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] well yeah makes sense 00:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] since the cooldown of hammer probs always short enough 00:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] hammer only cools down after it hits 00:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] yeah 00:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] you don't get cooldown on hammer while you're frozen 00:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] no, that's not true 00:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] not? 00:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] hammer only gets a longer cooldown if you hit 00:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] so you can hammer instant whole time? 00:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] you still get small cooldown if you don't hit 00:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] oh, I meant to write if it fired, not if it hit 00:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] ah 00:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] you get a longer cooldown if you actually hit btw 😉 00:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] ah, nice to know 😛 01:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] So the only real question that remains is whether we want to allow this behaviour or not. Knowing it changes a lot of deepfreeze parts currently ingame 01:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] If we allow it I think we should merge this patch, if we don't then we should create a patch that drops/rate-limits this kind of input 01:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] along with me not wanting to fix it, I have a feeling that fixing it would probably be hard and need heuristics, possibly leading to valid input being dropped 01:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] a client-side fix would be the most likely one, i.e. not allowing `+fire` on mousewheel 01:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] only enforcing the rate limit for older clients 01:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] I don't really see a nice way to know what input is disallowed and what exactly to drop 01:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] e.g. do we drop the entire block? do we drop every other one? do we drop them randomly? 01:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] maybe we could only allow the hammer input to be in a small window which wouldn't completely remove the skill requirement, but it'd still allow the deepfly without dummy 01:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] I feel like people would still bind it to the scroll wheel 01:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] vanilla people actually do that btw 01:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] to fire the gun as fast as possible 01:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] fuck those people 01:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] I mean it'll be the first thing I do when I get home 01:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] @heinrich5991 or we could just leave it as is, the mouse wheel will make this much more consistent for everyone if not a 100% 01:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] yes, but I'd prefer it on a non-mousewheel 01:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] I don't like having to have special binds to play the game 01:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] (e.g. I was very annoyed by the deepfly bind) 01:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] Yeah I thought we should patch that thing out the second I heard about it 01:36 <+Konsti> lmao jao contructive af 01:36 <+Konsti> constructive* 02:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] in vanilla this shit is only tolerated because magnet does it 02:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] i would love to see this discussion in vanilla 02:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] I had it 02:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] heinrich pr to allow rapid fire hammer/pistol to cope with scrollwheel spam 02:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] did u actually? 02:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] no 02:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] I had the discussion of banning +fire on scrollwheel 02:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] a couple of years back 02:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] why was it turned down 02:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] "pros use it" 02:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] I found that a non-convincing argument 02:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] why not the other way then 02:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] I did not propose that back then 02:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] it’s the same argument 02:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] yes, but I'd like it the other way for vanilla 02:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] ddnet is known for quirky, "fun" gameplay 02:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] vanilla is not so quirky 02:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] can u do something against it server side 02:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] we can try 02:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] but I don't think it'll be easy 03:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] Theres way too much you want... 03:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] It is not about what you want, maybe you should ask the community more often @heinrich5991 03:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/628043350427041800/unknown.png 03:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] which is what I did there? 08:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] You don't quite seem to understand what it means to block this server-side 08:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] the heuristic we decide to use could end up eating your input, is that preferable to losing some bragging rights? 08:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] Also you don't always know that someone is spamming the hammer at the time, what if we know after the hammer hits? Do we ban them for cheating? 08:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] Anyway if we don't merge this we might aswell disallow the hammer spam. I'd love to see how you feel about it when konsti starts cheating all the deepfreeze parts smashing records 09:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] @fokkonaut you force-pushed to ddnet7, apparently also killing teehistorian 09:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] ?? 09:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet7 09:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet7/tree/master/src/game/server 09:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] no teehistorian.cpp 10:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] mh 10:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] @heinrich5991 does removing the commit fix it? 10:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] removing what commit? 10:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] I don't know what you did 10:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] you probably did `git reset` followed by a forced `git push` 10:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] as a rule of thumb, never do forced pushes to public branches like master 10:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] what to do now? can you fix it? :/ 10:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] what did you do after merging my PR? 10:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] you could have a look at your local `git reflog 10:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] you could have a look at your local `git reflog` 10:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] you should be able to see the last state after you reset it 10:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] what did you do, anyway? `git reset`? ^^ 10:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] no 10:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] just edited without a pull i guess 10:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] no, something worse happened there 10:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] it might also be caused by someone else with write access to the repo, but I doubt anyone else did something(?) 12:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] @heinrich5991 if you have the (a?) previous state on your machine, you could restore it as well 🙂 12:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] I have a previous version of it 12:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] I don't know if it's the newest one 12:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] also, according to GitHub, https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet7/commit/95a4b6579433ca3205c31aab79ba009985455cb6 was pushed by its author, as were the previous and next commits 12:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] are you sure that teehistorian.cpp was actually commited? 12:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] also, according to GitHub, https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet7/commit/95a4b6579433ca3205c31aab79ba009985455cb6 was pushed by its author, as were the previous and next commits (AFAIK) 12:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet7/pull/10 12:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] how do you know what commit was pushed by whom? 12:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] ah, that PR was somehow nuked, indeed 12:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] I think GH would sometimes show "xx committed and yy pushed" 12:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] not sure if it does it on branches or only on PRs though 12:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] no, that's just "authored and committed" 12:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] not pushed 12:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] authored = written the code, commited = cherry-picked or rebased the commits, pushes aren't seen in git 12:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] (they might be seen somewhere on github, I don't know) 12:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] your commit is in the staging branch though 13:00 * Konsti slaps Ryozuki around a bit with a large fishbot 13:00 * Ryozuki gives Konsti a clout round the head with a fresh copy of WeeChat 13:01 <+Ryozuki> Konsti what 14:13 <+Konsti> Ryozoozki 14:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] @heinrich5991 idk why but your commits arent there anymore 14:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] yes 14:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] try using `git reflog` on your local repo to find the last version before the break 15:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] @heinrich5991 lets run a test server with your patch 15:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] sure 19:08 * Konsti slaps Ryozuki around a bit with a large fishbot 19:24 <+Ryozuki> Konsti: hi 19:24 <+Ryozuki> Konsti: why u slap me 19:43 <+Konsti> isnt it ur fetish ryozoozki 21:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] Is/was there a reason why we have this awkward combination of record_race and record_teamrace in our database with all the redundancy but still no way to clearly match stuff from record_race with a teamrace? 21:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] no one did it properly I guess? 21:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] there's still lots of race conditions in there as well 😛 21:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] I got a little time the last days and in light of ddnet7 did some experiments to implement an rpc-service that is used to communicate with a database. Things are mostly working already but now i am creating a python script to do the actual sql-queries and it is not so nice. To clarify how it works right now: DDNet-Server calls my pythonscript or whatever implements the rpc-servic 21:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] About the db-scheme: I was thinking of a table for finishes storing map, time, gameuuid etc. but not the playernames or checkpoints with an uuid and another table linked via this uuid with the players and their checkpoints. 21:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] Maybe checkpoints should even be another table, so we keep only the best.