00:42 <+Learath2> try coding a linked list in rust or better yet a graph library
00:42 <+Learath2> it absolutely drove me insane trying to get the references correct for a graph library
00:43 <@heinrich5991> yup, that's something rust isn't good at
00:44 <@heinrich5991> writing data structures. using them is fine though
13:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> Yikes what a discussion... I really should give rust another try 🙂
14:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <texnonik> When finally will be fixed ? When you open editor and save map your framerate changing to 72 and don't goes back in game . ( Fixes by pressing vertical synhronization clicking two times but it's annoying to do every single time )
14:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <texnonik> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/622411897442140160/IMG_20190914_153754.jpg
15:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> yay spam
15:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> @Learath2 :c
15:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> 0.7 is nice
15:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> Any reasons ?
15:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> why is he pushing every commit on its own
16:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> @jao im sorry
16:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Just drop bam
16:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @ChillerDragon it's a whole lot of work just to get a worse looking client
16:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> And by a whole lot i dont mean a couple weeks, it'd take months to get everything that ddnet client has into vanilla
16:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> @Learath2 agree about the work but disagree about the worse looking. Well okay i prefered the old server browser but the new menu is nicer imo. And also wouldn't it be nice to update to latest vanilla codebase and keep merging the new commits from vanilla? The it also would be less work to update to 0.8
16:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> You also seem invested in 0.7. Did you put all your bitcoin in a bet or sth? :D
16:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> xd+
16:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> nah all my bitcoins are in ddnet :troll:
16:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> its just i really like the game and 0.7 is future for sure. And i also like ddnet and it would be sad if a big part of the community dies with 0.6. Also 0.7 feels better than 0.6
16:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> Demo slowmo is smoother
16:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> for example
16:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Why are you so sure its the future? Ddnet survived the test of time, vanilla didnt
16:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> well vanila kept ddnet aluve
16:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> i dont wanna talk about ddnet demos :cammo:
16:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> new players come because of the official advertisement
16:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> A small part of the community dying in 0.7 is way more likely then the community dying in 0.6
16:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> inside teeworlds ddnet might be more popular than vanilla. But outside teeworlds where new players come from teeworlds is more known than ddnet.
16:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Please, do you see it reasonable that the 500 or so players we have here migrating to 0.7 if we dont?
16:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> yes
16:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> 0.7 has over 100 players already too
16:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> because players quit
16:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> i watched the count increase
16:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> and new players join 0.7 and not 0.6
16:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Lately all of you have been talking from ideological and emotional standpoints about everything
16:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> How many people play 0.7 rn?
16:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> 110 players
16:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> it increased every week
16:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> last week i saw around 60 or 70 in average
16:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> well sure i am emotional about tw but the assumption that 0.7 is going to kill 0.6 slowly isnt emotional i think.
16:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> or maybe 80
16:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> How many of them will stick around to play?
16:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> not many
16:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> If the rate you give is correct, congrats with the snowball effect teeworlds will be the next fortnite
16:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> xD i dont think it will keep this rate
16:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> i assume the average playtime of most tw players is 1-2 weeks vanilla and then they move on.
16:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> ofc its also based on daytime and stuff
16:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> but some of those stay. But they will stay in 0.7
16:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> see, 120players right now
16:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> 190 servers
16:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> @Learath2 "4:50 PM] Learath2: You also seem invested in 0.7. Did you put all your bitcoin in a bet or sth? :D" this is a very bad discussion style IMO
16:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <fokkonaut> 20 players are in vanilla, 100 in other gamemodes on 0.7
16:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @heinrich5991 you cant argue against emotion and instinct with logic
16:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> It just doesnt work
16:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> xd heinrich mr nice guy joined again to enssure nice wording
16:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Look at antivaxxers
16:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> you're seem arrogant if you think that you're above emotion and the people you discuss with are obviously led by emotion
16:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> isnt it logic that new versions kill old ones @Learath2 ?
16:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> you seem arrogant if you think that you're above emotion and the people you discuss with are obviously led by emotion
16:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> and do you disagree that the source for new ddnet players is coming from vanilla teeworlds?
16:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> (this is just about this particular point of you, not about this discussion)
16:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I'm not above emotion, but i'm cognizant when I involve them in my arguments, and I always preface those with something along the lines of "imho"
16:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> same here
16:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> 
16:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/622446263035494430/unknown.png
16:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> When you come to me with.  I feel the future of teeworlds is 0.7. I'm sorry but that's not enough for me
16:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> so please assume good faith and assume that your discussion partner also does so and call them out if they don't
16:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> but not in such a general way
17:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> you did not respond to my arguments/assumptions why it is the future.
17:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> not like "you seem to be pretty invested in 0.6, @Learath2, it's not worth arguing with you". that's arrogant IMO
17:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> this discussion has nothing todo with tw anymore its pure meta...
17:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> yes
17:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I have no doubt chillerdragon is in good faith. I just think he is not aware of some emotional bias, which I pointed out
17:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> no
17:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> you said something general
17:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> you didn't point towards something specific
17:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> assume I said the above. how would you even respond?
17:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> "no u"?
17:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxD
17:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I think I'll bow out. I don't feel this is important enough to create a hostile environment like this
17:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> i'd say lets do it like deen said, implement few 0.7 servers and see if its worth it
17:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Also next time I say anything against the grain. Let me know and I'll stop. I just don't want to argue anymore
17:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> could be a new forum signature xd
17:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/622447360446038056/heinrich_u.png
17:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Gwendal> if the screen wasn't white theme probably
17:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> For the record, I'd respond to that with "suit yourself" @heinrich5991. You are entitled to your opinion just as much as i am to mine, and if you have no intention of changing it, there is no point to discuss in the first place.
17:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> s#discuss#discussing#
17:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> Was there some compiler flag or something debuggy to see what functions slow down my code?
17:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> valgrind if it's not IO
17:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> Or any advice to find where to look at if my tw mod is sooooo bloated that 32 tees activly playing has the same result has strong ddos xd
17:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> sounds like a job for valgrind
17:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> i thought valgrind is for memory and stuff?
17:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> ASan is also useful, not available on windows like valgrind tho
17:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> im not on windows ❤
17:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @ChillerDragon but that's not what you need, you need  a profiler
17:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> ya think so
17:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> like gprof
17:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> valgrind --tool=callgrind
17:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> that's a profiler
17:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> oh yeah, valgrind has callgrind
17:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> so
17:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> ```
17:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> valgrind --tool=callgrind ./twmod
17:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> ```
17:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> ?
17:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> yes, think so
17:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> ty
17:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> view with kcachegrind
17:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> ?
17:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> callgrind doesn't have a human friendly output
17:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> obv teeworlds catches players cuz its in steam
17:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> we justn eed to release ddnet on steam
17:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> the standalone way is the best way
17:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> build a mod ecosystem around ddnet
17:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> not teeworlds
17:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> it was also before steam
17:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> and lets be honest
17:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> no one plays vanilla
17:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> false
17:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> teeworlds itself sucks
17:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> ddnet is unique
17:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> false
17:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> ddnet is unqiue yes
17:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> vanilla is not
17:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> its generic
17:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> and rly boring
17:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> ctf? this is in every game
17:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> it only gets players due to steam
17:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> we should release on steam
17:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> and drop vanilla support
17:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> all the nice movement and physics that make ddnet unique are coming from vanilla which might be still "yet another 2d shooter" but it has a smooth gameplay and there are a bunch of players in the vanilla pro scene who play it for years and enjoy it.
17:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> chiller u always talk like we are in debt with tw but we arent
17:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> they suck
17:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> yikes i am not even able to join my tw server while it runs in valgrind
17:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> vanilla has a much cleaner codebase than ddnet does
17:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> i guess it slows it even more down
17:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @heinrich5991 Am I allowed to point out the obviously non-logical argument from @Ryozuki?
17:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> yes, about 10x
17:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> @heinrich5991 and then just ctrl-c and then kcachegrind?
17:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> @Learath2 yes…
17:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> we could make the codebase cleaner after becoming standalone dropping vanilla support
17:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> and all the hacky workarounds
17:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> the codebase isn't bad because of vanilla support
17:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> let me quote our blocker code
17:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Well there is a nice portion of the code supporting vanilla
17:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> The network clipping stuff isn't exactly what i'd call pretty
17:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> yes, but that's nothing to do with being unclean
17:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> nor the faketunes
17:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> vanilla 0.7 has a issue to support ddrace so if you would stop ranting about vanilla and start collaborate it could be less hacky
17:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @heinrich5991 this is cuz ddnet has the problem that maps use bugs, on vanilla u just dont care cuz there are no ranks
17:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> Oy and most vanilla devs are actually kinda mod supportive
17:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> no, even that can be solved
17:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> so we can solve it
17:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> its not a problem
17:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> yes
17:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> but we don't
17:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> that's why vanilla code is cleaner than ddnet's
17:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> if you explain how to solve it
17:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> we can do it
17:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @ChillerDragon So to support the mods they removed skin changes from the code?
17:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> but im not motivated if u are going to port to 0.7
17:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> it just sucks to much
17:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> It took me 3 days to try argue for them properly supporting 64players
17:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> but then they did
17:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> idk why u dont want this to become standalone
17:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> They wouldn't take it from me, it took some other guy
17:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> and skin change is reimplemented
17:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> all succesfull mods in games do it
17:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> `if(Temp.x > 0 && ((pCharCore->m_TileIndex == TILE_STOP && pCharCore->m_TileFlags == ROTATION_270) || (pCharCore->m_TileIndexL == TILE_STOP && pCharCore->m_TileFlagsL == ROTATION_270) || (pCharCore->m_TileIndexL == TILE_STOPS && (pCharCore->m_TileFlagsL == ROTATION_90 || pCharCore->m_TileFlagsL ==ROTATION_270)) || (pCharCore->m_TileIndexL == TILE_STOPA) || (pCharCore->m_TileFInde <message clipped>
17:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> (just for reference)
17:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @heinrich5991 which you cleaned up
17:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i know that
17:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> yes
17:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> but I introduced a bug, unfortunately
17:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> and then I didn't look at it again
17:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> (so far)
17:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @ChillerDragon in a suboptimal way
17:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Can you even do name changes from the server to attach a level anymore?
17:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> do a pr that is more optimal im sure it would be merged
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @ChillerDragon the optimal solution was to not mess with the status quo just because they felt like it
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> true
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> The names and the skins were perfectly fine in the snap
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> and they were completely optimized out by the delta
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> I do agree that they're perhaps better off not in the snap
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://partner.steamgames.com/steamdirect
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> but its not they are working against modding just for fun
17:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> we should go on steam
17:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> this way they're not sent more often when you have a higher latency
17:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> we had just bad luick they changed greenlight when we were just about to get in steam
17:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @ChillerDragon but they won't go out of their way to give us a hand either
17:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> i.e. one time per 40ms latency
17:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> (roundtrip)
17:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @heinrich5991 deltashots would never contain the names and skins the occasional full snapshot would, but even that is negligible
17:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> But yes, it is more optimal bandwidth wise this way
17:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Sadly traffic usage does not correlate with mod friendliness at all
17:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> yikes kcachegrind is gui. I am always confused by gui
17:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2 why you don't want to become standalone
17:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i dont like relying on other people
17:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ryozuki I think we still have the option to greenlight
17:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> no
17:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> it doesnt exist
17:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> we do
17:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> we can publish on steam right now
17:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Yeah, we were greenlit before it ended
17:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> if you want
17:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> so we can publish still
17:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> we should do it
17:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ryozuki I don't want to become standalone because most are against it
17:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> most?
17:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> chiller
17:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> I'm also against it
17:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> well obv u are a tw dev
17:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> chiller, heinrich,deen and fokkonaut make up like 70% of the ddnet development work
17:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> there is still a other mods community like city/zcatch/infection/block etc
17:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> xd
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i would say heinrich 60%
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> xd
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> tru
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> deen would go with the grain I assume since he doesn't like to involve himself in these matters
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> i did only typos
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> if we go standalone i would help more
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> but given the path to 0.7 u seem to support
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> it just doesnt make me want to help
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> @ChillerDragon "
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> Oy and most vanilla devs are actually kinda mod supportive"
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> 
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> is that acutally true? 😄 always thought thats the reason everyone hates vanilla xD
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> yes
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> and thats sad because here is some lack of communication
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> @Jupstar ✪ there seems to have been some kind of change in the last year or so
17:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Jupstar ✪ they weren't very friendly the last time around, and a couple of us are rightly still very skepticak
17:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> unjustified hate
17:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> justified*
17:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> s#k$#l#
17:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> xd
17:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> thanks for your helpful commentary… @ChillerDragon @Ryozuki
17:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> It's not hate, it's just healthy skepticism
17:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> ???
17:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> ???
17:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> what are u being thankfull fore
17:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> for*
17:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Going standalone is something we could only do with @heinrich5991 agreeing at this point tbh, and that's not likely
17:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> why has heinrich to agree?
17:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> idk what yo talking about @heinrich5991 ? was this some passive agressive critique?
17:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> So I think the best way forward is indeed migrating to 0.7
17:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> omg
17:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> @ChillerDragon yes
17:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> then pls explain it further
17:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> time to look for another open source project to help
17:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> rq
17:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ryozuki because unless you think you and I are enough to develop a completely standalone fork, we just don't have the people
17:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I definitely don't have much time at all to spare
17:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> ???
17:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> we are already kinda standalone
17:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> we only push some upstream patches like every 2 years
17:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> we would just drop vanilla support and ease our life
17:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> That's not enough, people need to follow our fork
17:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> note that you're overestimating my contributions, @Learath2. https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/graphs/contributors you have way more contributions than I do in recent times
17:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> lot of ppl already follow ddnet fork
17:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> but i think your contributions have a high quality @heinrich5991
17:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @heinrich5991 your work is usually essential things
17:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> what would be wrong adjusting the vanilla code, so ddnet gets an extension, like a clean code base, where its easy to develop mods like ddrace in
17:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> and yeah, definitely way higher quality then most of legacy ddrace code
17:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> if they are as mod friendly as they say xD
17:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> heinrich is mainly the cmake guy
17:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> The optimal scenario for me would be to base a very moddable version of teeworlds on 0.7
17:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> yes
17:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> that sounds like the best for me too
17:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> And avoid touching the vanilla code at all while modding so we can merge in upstream easily
17:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> However, that's just an immense amount of work, just to get all the hooks in the right places
17:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> yes
17:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Let alone reimplementing the couple dozen features ddnet has using those hooks
17:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> i mean, how many features does ddnet really have? xD
17:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> its mostly overloading the weapons and physics
17:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> couple dozen is my estimate 😛
17:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> front layers, switch speedups, telegun, time, checkpoints, freeze mechanics, the weapons modified, teleport, etc
17:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I experimented with a very small project that loads mods as dll's
17:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I only implemented chat commands, interesting but dynamic libraries are not too nice to work with
17:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> thats why ppl usually dont load dynamic libraries in c++
17:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> they use lua
17:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> oh nice @Learath2
17:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Yeah, lua or python would have been a much better choice
17:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> I also thought about that in the past
17:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i just wonder how much perfomance effect it has
17:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> I thought that maybe one could do it in wasm these days
17:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> yeah no script languages in loops
17:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> its killer
17:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ryozuki an extra call on the stack for most of the part
17:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> then you can even continue coding your stuff in C
17:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> (for a dynamic library that is)
17:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> /C++
17:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> web assembly?
17:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> no scripting language in tight loops*
17:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> why not allow specific overloads in compile time, like preprocessor macros allowing to overload specific initialization of objects
17:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> preprocessor macros are just black magic
17:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> *defines
17:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> They really don't lead to the cleanest code
17:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> how do they destroy any code
17:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> What could be cute is if teeworlds had been designed properly for polymorphism
17:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i think factorio is a nice example
17:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> they build the engine in c++ and gameplay in lua
17:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> its rly well done tbh
17:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> `extern CreateObject
17:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> 
17:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> #if MOD____
17:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> #include "this"
17:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> #else
17:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> #include "standard"
17:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> #endif`
17:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Arma also follows the same idea, most all bohemia games use the same engine
17:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> nothing is well done with script languages
17:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> :danAmazing:
17:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://lua-api.factorio.com/latest/
17:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> this is good modding support
17:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> vanilla is a joke xd
17:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Jupstar ✪ countless games that support modding through scripting languages and countless others that implement all of gameplay in scripts begs the differ
17:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> doesnt matter, what they claim
17:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> jupstar holds the truth
17:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> fact is script languages run poor
17:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> in his hand
17:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> so
17:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> JIT helps quite a lot
17:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> teeworlds is designed to run on a potato
17:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> yo u sacrifice some perfomance for ease
17:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> its always been this way
17:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> luajit is quite performant nowadays
17:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> but it doesnt need to be like this
17:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> not for an open source game
17:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> thats true
17:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> v8 is also blazing fast
17:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> we could make modding directly in c++
17:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> with a good a api
17:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> @Jupstar ✪ what about webassembly? I think it runs at most 0.5x the speed of native?
17:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> *at least
17:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I think we could even do with just polymorphism tbh
17:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> yeah but why not a solution that doesnt need any extra layer at all xD
17:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> how do you load untrusted code?
17:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> i dont see this "the code looks shitty then" you all see 😄
17:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> functions in dynamic libraries run at 1x the speed of native 😛
17:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> u directly compile the whole client with that extension
17:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> not quite
17:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> it's an indirect function call
17:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> lot of irc servers use c++ modules
17:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> well dynamic libraries
17:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> @Learath2 ppl also believe java runs as good as c in some rare never occuring edge cases
17:46 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> well the extra function call would in most cases be negligable w.r.t what the function itself is doing
17:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2 r u trying to achieve a way to mod that doesnt require to recompile the base game?
17:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> or you don't care about that
17:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> so u would like to have a mod loader client/server
17:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> i would like to have a modable client/server
17:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> we should make it clear
17:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ryozuki I'm mostly trying to achieve not touching the vanilla code
17:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> and thats best done at compile time
17:47 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> It'd be nice to have a small list of changes to vanilla that wouldn't break too much while merging new code
17:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Jupstar ✪ with dynamic libraries, you can also statically link your code, ZNC does something similar
17:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> if u want a modloader u would need to have support of vanilla team
17:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> imo
17:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> you can both load dynamic libraries, or compile znc with a module
17:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Jupstar ✪ the macro example you gave e.g. wouldn't lead to the easiest merges
17:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> e.g. pickup.h would need to have the content you posted, and a change to pickup.h would have to go to pickup_vanilla.h
17:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> tw still prioritizes bam over cmake btw
17:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> xd
17:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I don't get that either
17:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> What is that if not just sentiment?
17:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> our lord matrix made it
17:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> so we must use it
17:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> cmake+ninja is ridiculously fast
17:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> instead of the standard used nowadays
17:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> all praise matrix
17:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I doubt that's it @Ryozuki
17:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> they are just to lazy
17:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i guess
17:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Probably, or maybe status quo bias
17:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i had to make a pr
17:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> to fix cmake
17:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> until they merged it
17:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> it would error
17:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> it just not their priority
17:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> xddd
17:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> @Learath2 true if things in these areas change alot of behaviour often
17:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> but thats not really the case i'd say
17:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> not more, than a modloader would be needed to change
17:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> bcs u can still polymorph the vanilla objects
17:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Jupstar ✪ I have a better way to implement your macro thing with less pita merges
17:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Keep the standard file in there, and just have it in an #else block
17:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> git handles those kinds of merges much better
17:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> u know most things we say here will be forgotten tomorrow
17:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> But it's still a lot of code duplication
17:55 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> our pickup.h is not that different then vanillas
17:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> but remember
17:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> we talk about a anyway easy modable base
17:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ryozuki I actually do intend to do something with the couple of weeks I have after exams
17:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> its not the vanilla we have now
17:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2 u always say that :p
17:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> its designed to be modable in first place
17:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ryozuki this time I actually have the time to do something significant
17:56 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> last time I just had so many other things to do during the "free" time
17:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> im willing to help make a mod friendly game
17:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> with cmake
17:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> and i still think
17:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> oy is stubborn
17:57 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Jupstar ✪ I think I like the idea of hooks or standard polymorphism much better
17:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i think hooks is the best
17:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> also mod intercommunication should be a thing if ever
17:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> maybe im thinking to much
17:58 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> If teeworlds was better set up to handle oop code, polymorphism would work just fine
17:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> indeed
17:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> But manipulating behaviour in huge monolith functions like Tick() would be hard
17:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> imagine you make a mod which adds a currency api
17:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> other mods should be able to use it
17:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> u can modulize it more
17:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> its bad code anyway
17:59 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ryozuki yeah, that all comes with implementing a good ecosystem
18:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> It'd be cute if people could just include a universal account system in their mods by just loading a module
18:00 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> thats how good modding is done
18:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Jupstar ✪ Yeah, a lot of the code needs refactoring like this sadly
18:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> ddnet could nicely implement client side mod support for fng and other stuff then too 😄
18:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> so ur talking about changing ddnet to be supper mod friendly
18:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> or changing vanilla?
18:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> vanilla as mod friendly base
18:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> u would need oy and others to agree
18:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> and commit to it
18:01 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ryozuki I'd work with 0.7 if possible
18:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> well chillerdragon said they are mod friendly
18:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> if they really are
18:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> That's why I said we shouldn't touch vanilla code
18:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> they could prove it like this
18:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> ye chiller says a lot of things tbh
18:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> If we have a fork that can easily follow vanilla, but is also mod friendly, it'd take over anyway
18:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> i am only sceptical bcs i heard things like this in the past, not bcs i am sure about it
18:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Jupstar ✪ im also skeptical
18:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> oy was super anti mod
18:02 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> anti ddrace
18:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> so if oy would agree to help working on this, or atleast allow others to do it, i would welcome him todo so
18:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ryozuki he is doing a little better nowadays, Dune even made a small "ddrace"
18:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> ye i seen it
18:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> but remember oy is the guy who said ddrace was cancer
18:03 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> and the worst for tw
18:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> just sayin
18:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> its in the forum
18:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> One thing with mod systems is untrusted code
18:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i would just warn ppl
18:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> if they add something shady
18:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> up to them
18:04 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> well if mod loader, i am actually with @heinrich5991 using something like webasmbly
18:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> "warning: mods can contain mailicious code, make sure to trust blabla"
18:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> thats fast and safe as in safety can be xD
18:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I'd rather have some sandboxing in place, atleast a little
18:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i wouldnt
18:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Yeah, something like wasm could be cute
18:05 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> how wasm works?
18:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> its bascially a vm i think
18:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> C/C++ code compiles to wasm
18:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> and it's a vm yeah
18:06 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> is the sandbox the only benefit?
18:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> mods won't crash your game e.g. 🙂
18:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> It's also relatively fast
18:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> (side effect of sandboxing)
18:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I'm not sure how it fares compared to luajit or v8 though
18:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> im still against mod loader tho, i just dont see the gain in it, would be nice if all mods can stay open source anyway
18:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> yes
18:07 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Jupstar ✪ well closed source mods are a thing, look at block servers
18:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> and they are full of ddosers
18:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> yeah but they dont do anything awesome u can't implement in 2-3 days xD
18:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I mean how we implement the mod stuff doesn't really influence those people
18:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Jupstar ✪ ye anyone willing to make a open source version of what they have wouldnt have a hard time doing it
18:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> just nobody is interested in that shit
18:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> yo hackers? does some1 has a quick sed or something to remove these 3 lines in my codebase?
18:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/622463799038967818/unknown.png
18:08 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> well anyway, its server side anyway
18:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> i also speak of client side mods
18:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @ChillerDragon are you stealing ath code? 😄
18:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> is this in ath code? xd
18:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Yes, ATH keeps a call stack
18:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> never looked into it
18:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> very useful for debugging actually
18:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> why?
18:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> gdb does the same?
18:09 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> At any point during runtime you can dump the stack
18:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> some dude implemented that for me because i didn tknow how gdb worked back then
18:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> he might be a contribuor of ath
18:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> without the performance penalty of gdb, or relying on libunwind
18:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> gdb doesn't have a performance penalty
18:10 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> but performance penalty of this system xd
18:11 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> u can export symbols in gcc and see where the crash happenend without debugging
18:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I assumed so aswell (given there is hardware support), but it did slow down my old laptop 🤔
18:12 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> hmmm
18:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> find . | grep -E '\.(cpp|h)$' | xargs python -c 'import sys;for a in sys.argv[1:]:contents=open(a).read();open(a, "w").write(contents.replace("#if defined(CONF_DEBUG)\n\tCALL_STACK_ADD();\n#endif\n", ""))'
18:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> `find . | grep -E '\.(cpp|h)$' | xargs python -c 'import sys;for a in sys.argv[1:]:contents=open(a).read();open(a, "w").write(contents.replace("#if defined(CONF_DEBUG)\n\tCALL_STACK_ADD();\n#endif\n", ""))'`
18:13 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> untested, first check that `find . | grep -E '\.(cpp|h)$'` does what I expect
18:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> have backups
18:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> oh, could've done that with find *shrug*
18:14 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> @ChillerDragon ^
18:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> yikes python
18:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> i expected something simpler tbh but thanks ill try it
18:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> sed and awk operates on lines
18:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> it's not exactly convenient to use them for multiple lines
18:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> hmm i see
18:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> if u use an IDE chillerdragon u might also have a replace function with support for such things
18:15 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> or use regular expressions
18:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> true
18:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> VSCode has a decent find and replace
18:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> so does sublime
18:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Atom can also do multiple lines iirc
18:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> the only things is the number of tabes used
18:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> thats why regular expressions are nice 😄
18:16 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> the only things is the number of tabs used
18:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> ya was thinking about vscode as well
18:17 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> but does it support multiple lines?
18:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> and i always got weird results with replace in vscode
18:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> it has a mode probably that allows characters like \n
18:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> vim best
18:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> u can just copy the string herinrich postet
18:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> u can just copy the string herinrich posted
18:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> vscode can do multiline even without newline characters
18:18 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> oh nice
18:19 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> you can just select the group before hitting cmd shift f
18:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2
18:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> u use vscode instead of vim?
18:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> our vim priest is back XD
18:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ryozuki yeah, I'm too with vim
18:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> vim is the editor
18:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> other "editors" are plebs
18:20 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> If I ever get proficient with it, I might use vscode in vim mode
18:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> apparently it's great
18:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> only the church of emacs can go against vim
18:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> no one knows who wins
18:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> vim has a multiple of the user base IIRC
18:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> please, emacs is a sad excuse for an editor that might aswell be an entire operating system
18:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> xd
18:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jPmnDZ6ab8
18:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> emacs+systemd can probably replace an entire distro
18:21 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2 hav u seen this
18:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> nope
18:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> xd
18:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2 do u have ur vimrc online?
18:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://gist.github.com/Ryozuki/08506fd05cc42d078882939cfa1f680a
18:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-most-popular-development-environments
18:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> in that survery, vim has 5x the userbase of emacs
18:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> nice
18:23 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> ez
18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> all discussion for nothing, if we really want to change vanilla, we just need to let @Ryozuki talk about how awesome the mod support idea is in the vanilla discord, he convinces everyone
18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> wat
18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> why me xd
18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> bcs u the tw priest
18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ryozuki I don't have a vimrc, apparently I'm not allowed one until I learn how to use vim
18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> omg
18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA2WjJbmmoM
18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> hey that's what the greybeards have told me
18:24 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> this is nice
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> `
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> ```
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> set background=dark
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> set nocompatible
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> set backspace=indent,eol,start
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> set showcmd " display incomplete commands
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> set incsearch " do incremental searching
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> set hlsearch
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> set number
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> set smartcase
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> set autoindent
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> set ruler
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> set hls bg=dark
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> set completeopt+=longest
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> set wildmode=longest,full
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> filetype plugin on
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> syntax on
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> 
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> "scratch indent reconfiguration, use vim-sleuth
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> 
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> function! CleverTab()
18:25 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991>  if strpart( getline('.'), 0, col('.')-1 ) =~ '^\s*$'
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991>   return "\<Tab>"
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991>  else
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991>   return "\<C-N>"
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991>  endif
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> endfunction
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> inoremap <Tab> <C-R>=CleverTab()<CR>
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> 
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> "autocmd filetype rust set comments^=:///
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> "autocmd filetype rust set comments^=://!
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> autocmd filetype rust set tw=0 <message clipped>
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> clevertab
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> this will be fun in irc
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> heh
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> 
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/622468110724759595/unknown.png
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I really need some way to navigate projects in vim
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> use
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> fzf
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> ctrl p is the most useful thing sublime has come up with
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> use fzf
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> and bind it
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> to ctrl p
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i have it
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> in my vimrc
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> please
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> write
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> its rly ez
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> a
18:26 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> single
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> line
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> XD
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> what
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> linebreak
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> isn
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> t
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> the
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> 
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/622468364798787590/unknown.png
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> word
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> separator
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <ChillerDragon> xd
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> 😄
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> compile_commands.json??
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I smell vscode
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> ?
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> @heinrich5991 PLSS 
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> ofc \
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> u \
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> just \
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> need \
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> to \
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> its generated by cmake
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Jupstar ✪> add \
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> oh it's clang actually
18:27 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2 my neovim lang server which uses clang for c uses it
18:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i have a cmake plugin which makes the build dir and the link automatically
18:28  * bridge [ddnet] <Learath2> is studying java
18:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2 bntw u should use neovim not vim
18:28 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> it just better
18:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://github.com/junegunn/fzf
18:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> :poggers:
18:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> is it not very meh having to drop to a shell to execute fzf?
18:29 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> ?
18:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> vscode best
18:30 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I'd still like sublime better if only they updated it
18:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Electron is such a resource hog
18:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2 u just have to force urself to vim only and in a week u wont be able to go back
18:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Also Java in a text editor is just a horrible experience
18:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> discord is electron
18:31 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Discord is also such a resource hog 😛
18:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> 😛
18:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2 https://about.riot.im/
18:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> decentralized discord
18:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> it uses matrix protocol xd
18:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> The top3 is not surprising at all
18:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/622469748718043166/Screenshot_2019-09-14_at_18.32.12.png
18:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> is that mac?
18:32 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ryozuki with things like these, the most important factor isn't how open source it is or how secure it is
18:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> it's mostly how many people you can reach with it
18:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Yeah it's macOS
18:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2 ye and it will never win cuz u dont have the marketing power of a company
18:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> but its still nice
18:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> eclipse is also an amazing resource hog
18:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> like most other ide's I guess
18:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> ye
18:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> vim is just the best
18:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> :justatest:
18:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Java in vim would be such a miserable experience 😄
18:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> thats true  i guess
18:34 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> but thats cuz the nature of java
18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Even in vscode with plugins it was not nice
18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> it relies on IDEs a lot
18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> atleast u have intellij idea
18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> its rly good for java
18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> yeah, raises a lot of developers that are reliant on the crutches
18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> if only intellij idea had a nice color scheme
18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> lol
18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> u can install themes
18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i always installed material
18:35 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> xD
18:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> material themes are usually too light for me nowadays
18:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> do u use light or dark theme for coding
18:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> 
18:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/622470798455734320/Screenshot_2019-09-14_at_18.36.29.png
18:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Depends on where I'm coding
18:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> 
18:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/622470845453041671/unknown.png
18:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> At home always dark, if I'm outside in sunlight it's always light
18:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> 
18:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/622470883683860520/unknown.png
18:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> wait it just loaded my colors
18:37 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> this is how my idea looks
18:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> This is what I usually use under sunlight
18:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/622471221040381962/Screenshot_2019-09-14_at_18.38.05.png
18:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> omg
18:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i die
18:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> The yellowish background looks white under natural sunlight 😛
18:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> this is my vim :justatest:
18:38 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/622471347758432266/unknown.png
18:39 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I guess it's how eyes adjust white balance playing tricks on you
18:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Used this for a long time, it's just not dark enough anymore
18:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/622471667549077504/Screenshot_2019-09-14_at_18.39.47.png
18:40 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> i like the default dark theme
18:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @jao I also like it, but there are two flaws in it for me
18:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> so u use vscode
18:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> it doesn't color variable names differently then the assignment operator
18:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> and it's not dark enough 😛
18:41 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2 what term u use?
18:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> kitty, because mac os terminals are retarded
18:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> im using kitty too
18:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> and CoreFont can't handle a lot of text
18:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i need a better font tho
18:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/622472247034118164/unknown.png
18:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> kitty sadly renders fonts a little weirdly sometimes
18:42 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> the only acceptable terminal font is dejavu sans mono
18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> I like dejavu sans mono as well
18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> terminals on bitmap fonts look the best
18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> but they dont support many characters
18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> droid sans mono also looks nice
18:43 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> https://github.com/sunaku/tamzen-font
18:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> That also looks cute
18:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> xd
18:44 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> @Learath2 exezin uses bitmap fonts
18:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> should comments draw attention or not
18:45 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> no
18:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> wanna start a holy war, @jao? 😛
18:48 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> yes
18:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> @Ryozuki exezin also uses an amazing algorithm to scale them
18:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> https://github.com/Chlumsky/msdfgen
18:49 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Amazing work imho
18:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> 😛
18:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> This is intellij IDEA without any projects open 😛
18:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/293493549758939136/622474260576862232/Screenshot_2019-09-14_at_18.48.46.png
18:50 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> @Ryozuki do u read ur comments
18:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> my comments are mostly todos
18:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> and those shouldn’t draw attention?
18:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> no
18:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> i will just use grep
18:51 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> to search for todos
18:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> 😛
18:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> :lol:
18:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> linux as ide
18:52 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> rg is a nice grep replacement for searching through code btw
18:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> faster and shorter command lines
18:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> Yeah, rg works pretty nicely
18:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> vsc especially highlights todos 😛
18:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> I also use fgrep sometimes
18:53 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Learath2> helps a lot with the speed
18:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> what about ack
18:54 <+bridge> [ddnet] <heinrich5991> slower than grep and rg IIRC
21:22 <+bridge> [ddnet] <archimede67> jao vsc fan
21:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> that’s right
21:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> because it’s by microsoft
21:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> and im a windows normie
21:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> cc @Ryozuki
21:33 <+bridge> [ddnet] <Ryozuki> ye
21:36 <+bridge> [ddnet] <jao> 🤡