02:11 < ddnet-commits> [ddnet] heinrich5991 opened pull request #951:  Activate C++11 in old CMake as well (master...pr_ddnet_cpp11_old_cmake) https://git.io/vFAtf
04:01 < ddnet-commits> [ddnet] bors[bot] closed pull request #951:  Activate C++11 in old CMake as well (master...pr_ddnet_cpp11_old_cmake) https://git.io/vFAtf
08:24 <+ddnet-discord> <ChillerDragon> I think if you want to rename ddnet you have to stop the server from telling the clients "im a ddnet Server" but this also fucks the whisper feature and freezing/exploding bullets in maps. And probably some more ddnet stuff. I made it on my Server 😃 i renumerier it to DDrace lul. So that ddnet clients still can use zoom. If you Need the code i can check.
08:25 <+ddnet-discord> <ChillerDragon> @ReiTW I think if you want to rename ddnet you have to stop the server from telling the clients "im a ddnet Server" but this also fucks the whisper feature and freezing/exploding bullets in maps. And probably some more ddnet stuff. I made it on my Server 😃 i renumerier it to DDrace lul. So that ddnet clients still can use zoom. If you Need the code i can check.
08:25 <+ddnet-discord> <ChillerDragon> @ReiTW I think if you want to rename ddnet you have to stop the server from telling the clients "im a ddnet Server" but this also fucks the whisper feature and freezing/exploding bullets in maps. And probably some more ddnet stuff. I made it on my Server 😃 i renamed it to DDrace lul. So that ddnet clients still can use zoom. If you Need the code i can check.
15:50 < ddnet-commits> [ddnet] heinrich5991 opened pull request #953: Overhauled job system (master...pr_ddnet_job_sanity) https://git.io/vFxkB
15:50 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> @Savander here?
15:50 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> yes
15:50 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> What's up ?
15:50 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> do you make money from web development?
15:51 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> yes, why?
15:51 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> Q: how much do you take for a simple static website?
15:51 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> huh, im not good person to ask
15:51 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> trying to get a grasp for the economics of this all
15:51 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> I'm from Poland, we have
15:52 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> ehm, they pay us less
15:52 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> especialy polish clients
15:52 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> in poland, for static page. i think about 600-1000pln
15:52 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> its like 300-400€
15:52 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> I mean, static page with few subpages
15:52 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> without CMS
15:53 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> well isn't the world about outsourcing nowadays? 😛 people get an indian team to do your work for 20 euros  and some bread
15:53 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Something like Landing-page (product pag,e where you can send request)
15:53 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> 100-150€
15:53 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Ofc, im talking about programming + graphic design
15:53 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> prices in poland seems fair
15:53 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I've heard much worse tbh
15:54 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> yes, but you have to know
15:54 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> that, if you are doing it as a alone person then its fine
15:54 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> but it works a bit different, you know
15:54 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> it's split by 2 people at least
15:55 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> graphics designer and developer
15:55 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> ouf, true
15:56 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> @Savander you're also a graphics designer? cool 😮
15:56 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> and, if it takes a 2 days for example, or 3. It's not that much in overall
15:56 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> I was never able to do anything remotely good-looking
15:56 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Noo, im not
15:56 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> I'm working with graphic designer
15:56 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> @heinrich5991 give bootstrap a try
15:56 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> It makes wonders out of shitcoders 😛
15:56 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> I can do something.. but 🎬
15:57 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Yea, and every single page looks the same
15:57 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> 😄
15:57 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> (btw, @Learath2, if you've got too much time at your hands: https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/pull/953)
15:57 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I'm thinking of getting in to a bit of a binge webdev
15:57 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> 😛
15:58 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> @heinrich5991 I'll review it 😃
15:58 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> If you will have orders, then it's fine side-job
15:58 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> did you test it with -fsanitize=address or valgrind?
15:58 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> I'm actually looking for a job, but I am freelancer at the moment. I did some sites, but you know.
15:59 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> hmm, I imagine it's a competitive market given a lot of people want to do what I want to try :/
15:59 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Employers wants students or people with at-least 2years of commercial experience
15:59 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> its hard, im rgith after school
15:59 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> :/
16:00 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> I was thinking about college, but I'll go in next year, first I need moooney lul
16:01 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> Is it expensive in polan?
16:02 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> College?
16:02 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Not like school, but flat
16:03 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> @Learath2 no. in fact I haven't tested it at all yet
16:03 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> let me try
16:03 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> what have you done 😦 why do you change so many things? 😄
16:04 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> I changed jobs to use `shared_ptr`s
16:04 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> this way, you don't have to fiddle around with your own use counts anymore
16:04 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I can see that part
16:05 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> @heinrich5991  is looking for negative count of lines
16:05 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> i bet
16:05 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> so now jobs implement a Run() method?
16:05 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> yes
16:05 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> and you can pass them directly
16:05 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> without all that function pointer dance, which means you get some type-safety as well
16:05 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> might want a virtual int Run(); to keep the old interface no?
16:06 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> to keep `m_Result` I mean
16:06 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> yea, I removed that, I think no one or almost no one used it
16:07 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Does virtual keyword means, that it has to be implemented?
16:07 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> In other class, like interface?
16:07 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> `virtual` means it can be implemented
16:07 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> so no generic way to imply a task failure?
16:07 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> `= 0` means it has to be implemented
16:07 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> o.O, So what if you do not implement that function
16:07 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> does not compile
16:08 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> no one checked the return value anyway. you can store in your `IJob` subclass if you want
16:08 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> but without `= 0`
16:08 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> then you have to implement it in the interface
16:08 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> like provide a default
16:08 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Oh, get it
16:08 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> it's like abstract functions from PHP
16:10 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> @heinrich5991 so no longer callbacks but virtual functions, does that have any implications?
16:10 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> it's like abstract methods/class from PHP
16:10 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> same performance, more type-safety
16:10 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I meant more semantically
16:10 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> no semantic implications I think
16:11 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> if I understand "semantic implications"
16:14 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> might want m_Progress to be atomic, while it's well defined when accessing from OnProgress I'm not sure if it's entirely safe if you access it while the callback is accessing it
16:14 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> might want `m_Progress/m_Current/m_Size` to be atomic, while it's well defined when accessing from OnProgress I'm not sure if it's entirely safe if you access it while the callback is accessing it
16:20 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> @heinrich5991 also do you need locking to copy to/read from `m_aStatus` and/or `m_Percent` don't really need it to be well defined either
16:22 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> @heinrich5991 don't see anything else, will test it myself aswell before merging tho
16:23 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> @Learath2 client currently crashes on start :/
16:23 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> don't understand why
16:23 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> great 😄
16:23 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> it's not something fundamental though
16:23 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> but it compiles!
16:24 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> show bt? maybe I've seen it before
16:24 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> nah, I can tell you the exact line
16:25 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> context matters! 😛
16:25 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> here: https://github.com/ddnet/ddnet/pull/953/files#diff-a77011b7a5d5000255f11ab7409f86ebR56
16:25 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> I currently don't initialize the smart pointer
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> but even if I do, it still crashes with a null pointer
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> and I don't get why
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> ```
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> diff --git a/src/engine/shared/masterserver.cpp b/src/engine/shared/masterserver.cpp
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> index 85d1f3f15..bf8596a6e 100644
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> --- a/src/engine/shared/masterserver.cpp
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> +++ b/src/engine/shared/masterserver.cpp
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> @@ -53,6 +53,7 @@ public:
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991>                 // add lookup jobs
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991>                 for(int i = 0; i < MAX_MASTERSERVERS; i++)
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991>                 {
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> +                       dbg_msg("dbg2", "%p", m_aMasterServers[i].m_pLookup);
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991>                         *m_aMasterServers[i].m_pLookup = CHostLookup(m_aMasterServers[i].m_aHostname, Nettype);
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991>                         m_pEngine->AddJob(m_aMasterServers[i].m_pLookup);
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991>                         m_aMasterServers[i].m_Valid = false;
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> @@ -136,7 +137,11 @@ public:
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991>         {
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991>                 mem_zero(m_aMasterServers, sizeof(m_aMasterServers));
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991>                 for(int i = 0; i < MAX_MASTERSERVERS; i++)
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> +               {
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> +                       m_aMasterServers[i].m_pLookup = std::make_shared<CHostLookup>();
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> +                       dbg_msg("dbg", "%p", m_aMasterServers[i].m_pLookup);
16:26 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991>                         str_format(m_aMasterServers[i].m_aHostname, sizeof(m_aMasterServers[i].m_aHostname), "master%d.teeworlds.com", i+1);
16:27 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> +               }
16:27 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991>         }
16:27 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991>  
16:27 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991>         virtual int Load()
16:27 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> ```
16:27 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> that' not a nullptr dereference tho, why would it crash there?
16:27 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> because I didn't initialize the `shared_ptr`
16:27 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> but even if I do, it is still a null pointer
16:27 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> oh = doesn't really mean = in C++
16:27 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> `*m_aMasterServers[i].m_pLookup`
16:27 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> that can be a null pointer dereference in C as well oO
16:28 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> oh nvm, I'm blind apparently
16:29 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> shouldn't you remove the * and assign make_shared instead?
16:30 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I'm not even sure if it's valid like this tbh, you'd need some allocation to take place no?
17:09 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> @Learath2 I don't want an allocation there
17:09 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> to keep the allocation semantics the same as before
17:09 <+ddnet-discord> <heinrich5991> (i.e. no allocations at runtime due to that method)
17:23 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> if you assign a make_shared the = operator is overloaded, I think it'd just switch the tracked object
18:18 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> @Savander what is the new hip setupi to get started with web development?
18:18 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> huh?
18:18 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> i which area
18:18 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> in which area
18:18 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> changes every time I try getting started 😛
18:19 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> less/sass, bower, npm, composer, what do people use nowadays?
18:19 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> composer, yarn, sass
18:19 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> react js or vue2
18:19 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> they are trending
18:20 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> especially Vue2
18:20 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> because of laravel
18:20 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> (vue2 is included into that starterpoint)
18:20 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> WebPack
18:20 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> to compile frontend stuff
18:21 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> thanks oh phpgod
18:21 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> you can use laravel-mix, which simplify that.
18:21 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> the question is, if you want to go front or backend
18:21 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> or fullstack
18:21 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> ofc fullstack,
18:21 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> ofc fullstack
18:21 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> need everything 😄
18:21 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> great, then choose which framework do you want to use
18:21 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> on backend
18:22 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Symfony2, Zend, Laravel ( most popular at the moment )
18:22 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> and some more, but you have to choose by yourself
18:22 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Laravel has best community ever made (ha )
18:22 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> and Documentation
18:23 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> arent you supposed to make interactive sites that interact with the backend using a REST API now or is that trend dead already?
18:23 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> It depends
18:23 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> What do you want to have done
18:24 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> :PP
18:24 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> But yea, you can use laravel as a REST API point
18:24 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> and make full front-end based on React/Vue/Angular
18:24 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> or whatever you want to use
18:24 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I think I'd rather generate the pages like we did in ye olde times
18:24 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> I can't recommend you framework
18:24 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> im using Laravel.
18:24 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> ofc, it's all preference
18:25 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> But laravel has a big levle of abstraction
18:25 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> i mean
18:25 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> It's pretty humanish
18:25 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> in writing
18:25 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> If you want to start with laravel, then you can check https://laracasts.com/series
18:26 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> veeery good starting point.
18:26 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> OFC! You could go into Ruby on rails, or other languages
18:26 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> like Go
18:26 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> I don't know how you like PHP 😃
18:27 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I'm on decent terms with PHP
18:27 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Nowadays, PHP is pretty fast
18:27 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> don't go below PHP 7.1
18:27 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> so many things
18:27 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> it used to be so easy to get started with these things
18:27 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Just start from backend, and basic front-end
18:27 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Do not do everything at once :p
18:27 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> get a webserver, get a text editor and call it a day
18:28 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Actualyl, it's pretty easy
18:28 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> you need composer, webserver
18:28 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> and that's it 😃
18:28 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> now you need a compiler for css files, a program just to assemble it all together
18:28 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> does composer do frontend too?
18:28 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> I mean, Laravel do it all out of the box
18:28 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> no, composer manages php packages
18:28 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> you would like to use NPM (or Yarn)
18:29 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> why php needs a package manager is completely beyond me btw
18:29 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> I prefer yarn, it uses NPM repositories, but is faster
18:29 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> why php needs package manager? 😮
18:29 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> front-end even boggles my mind further
18:29 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> I think, now everything is based on packages
18:29 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> are we incapable of getting our own packages from the sites?
18:30 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> What do you mean? 😃 Btw. i'm more like backend
18:30 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> than front
18:30 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> why do I need yam to go get me the bootstrap package, while i can just go to bootstrap.com meself
18:30 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> in terms of web development
18:30 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> you don't need! 😄 It's perfectly fine to download it from website
18:30 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> why do i need grunt to put it all together while there is nothing to put together, compile thy sass files, move them in place
18:31 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> yarn will manage packages, if you want (for example), to install ReactJS
18:31 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> because, it has additional packages, like routing
18:31 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> which depends on other packages
18:31 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> generally, yarn (and npm) download a lot of stuff
18:31 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> that's why im not front end
18:31 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> it's.. pretty heavy
18:32 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> things like reactjs also boggle my mind, it's like html is not even used anymore 😛
18:32 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> 😃
18:33 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> People now expect, that everything on website will execute immediately. Without refreshing. Like native app
18:33 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I don't even follow how the modern stuff mixes with php
18:34 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I mean the php part has to be a REST API as anything pre-generated won't be interactive at all thus making all the JS stuff useless
18:34 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> seperate php and other stuff
18:34 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> php is standalone thing
18:34 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> you can use whatever you want on backend
18:34 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> front end just request for informations
18:34 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> yeah used to be that php generated the actual html
18:34 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> it's perfectly fine, to do it
18:35 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> you don't even need to use Javascript to make good website. Not every single page need supper dupper interaction
18:36 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> for example blogs, wordpress
18:36 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> think I'll go with some arcane mix of php and bootstrap to kick it off
18:36 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Most of the Javascript is placed in admin panel
18:36 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> just to make operation on it, smoother
18:36 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> or Foundation, used foundation once, quite nice
18:37 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> might even have liked it more then bootstrap that one time I actually used it for sth serious
18:37 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> tbh, I don't remember when I used css framework last time
18:37 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> well you did say you are more a backend person
18:37 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> for me, they are too heavy
18:37 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Yea, but I can css and html :D:D
18:38 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I love reinventing the wheel but with html it escapes me
18:38 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Do you want to follow modern stuff? or want to be as much compatible with old browsers as you can?
18:38 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I don't know how I'd even start arrenging elements without a framework helping me with a grid
18:39 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> generally, css framework solves a big problem
18:39 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> "grid"
18:39 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> https://caniuse.com/#search=grid
18:39 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> and responsive design without a framework, I can't even begin to imagine 😛
18:39 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> but now CSS natively supports grid. 😛
18:40 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> oh I know this website, It's like a horror movie
18:40 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> why :!? 😄
18:40 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> look at all the things you have to think about if you want your site to work everywhere
18:40 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> we should have enforced web standards long ago
18:40 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Oh, and the most important thing about html and css
18:40 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> start from mobile view.
18:41 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> and by enforced I mean just flat out refusing to render the website if it's not compliant
18:41 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> @Savander are you more for responsive design or having a seperate mobile version?
18:41 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> both are good, but it depends on type of website
18:42 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> if it's static page, I don't see reason to make "mobile version"
18:42 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> like, custom HTML and CSS
18:42 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> if it's some kind of web app
18:42 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> then I would redirect mobile users to mobile version
18:43 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> because, then you don't have mess in html structure
18:43 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> and generally it's easier to read and maintain
18:43 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> yeah, I've seen some pretty horrid stuff trying to cram the website into a mobile version using css
18:43 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Yea, and very often they are using js
18:43 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> to move elements around
18:43 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> (css-grid fixes that problem)
18:44 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> css-grid looks quite usable actually
18:44 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> pretty well supported accross the board
18:44 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> yup 😉 And it's not even that hard
18:44 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> to use
18:45 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> maybe I'll try getting into not using a front end framework
18:45 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Crazy fact: css-grid was introduced in this year
18:45 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> in march i guess
18:45 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> does sound like a waste of time tho, hmm
18:45 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> like, every major browsers did that
18:46 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> don't really know why I feel that way tho, I'm all for doing everything from scratch
18:46 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> @Savander btw do you have some kind of livereload on your browser?
18:46 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> would be quite useful actually
18:47 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThzedI9MhcU
18:47 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> If I do front-end, then yea
18:47 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> but it's like a plugin inside IDE
18:47 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Good starting point for Grid
18:48 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> would be nice if I could have sth that watches my sass files, compiles them on change and reloads my browser
18:48 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> laravel-mix will do that 😃
18:49 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> but without reeloading browsers
18:49 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> to reload browsers, you need another plugin inside your editor probably
18:49 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> or browsers plugin, to looking for changes in file
18:50 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> ooh, like the way she explains stuff, thx nicetalk
18:51 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> 😉
18:51 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> add to bookmarks https://laracasts.com/series
18:51 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> it will help you in learning laravel and other stuff
18:51 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> aand I'm confused again, do you have your backend and frontend in one project even?
18:51 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> yes
18:52 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> 😛
18:52 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I'd develop them seperately if you asked me
18:52 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> you can download laravel-mix as a standalone client
18:52 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> you can download laravel-mix as a standalone package
18:52 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> don't worry
18:52 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> If you would have trouble, i can help
18:53 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I think I'll ignore all this mess and write a bash script that watches my sass files :/
18:54 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> if you want to configure compiler by yourself, then sure
18:54 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> 😉
18:55 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> but wiht laravel-mix, you could just
18:55 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> `yarn run watch`
18:55 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> or `npm run watch`
18:55 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I think I have a better question
18:56 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> tell me how you start a project, I'l most definately use php, assume I won't use any framework
18:57 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Then it would be a bit hard
18:57 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> because you would need to have some kind of routing, requests/response class
18:57 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> database management
18:57 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> programming wise or is it the setup that's hard?
18:58 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> programming
18:58 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> php gives you standard function
18:58 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> as said I don't mind reinventing the wheel
18:58 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> you would like to start from index.php
18:58 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> you have to control everything from that file
18:58 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I mean more the setup involved in getting a development environment going
18:59 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> it will use your other classes, files
18:59 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> oh, okay. I can tell you, how i start by using laravel
18:59 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> You need composer
18:59 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> assume I'll do some front-end aswell btw
18:59 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> https://laravel.com/docs/5.5/installation
19:00 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Don't worry, laravel will give you option out of the box
19:00 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> It has his own template engine
19:00 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> generally, everything what you need to be full-stack developer
19:00 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I'm sorry but is this normal in the web world?
19:01 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> why is everything so overreaching? Is there anything that does one thing anymore?
19:01 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> ofc, you can use Lumen (Laravel framework, but only as a API)
19:01 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> to write code
19:01 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> and front end on your own
19:02 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> you don't even need to use Laravel front end helpers 😉
19:02 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> so I get composer, I get laravel, what next?
19:02 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> But yes, i think most of the major framework gives you possibility to manage front end, and backend
19:02 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Aaand, you start developing 😄
19:03 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> https://laracasts.com/series/laravel-from-scratch-2017
19:03 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> You should check that series
19:03 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> already watching as we speak
19:03 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> it will bring you into laravel very smoothly
19:03 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> then you will just use your own skills and documentation
19:03 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> I don't know how you like OOP
19:03 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> but Laravel is OOP framework at most
19:03 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> oh great, hate oop
19:04 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> I don't know if there's any other type of PHP frameworks
19:04 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Can't help you in that
19:04 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I'll get used to it, been through worse
19:04 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Because, every fucking tutorial, start from
19:04 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> "MVC!!!"
19:04 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> you have to use MVC
19:05 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> and you have to use SOLID principles
19:05 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> that's fine.. but not everyone wants to ;p
19:06 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> that's why I wanted to do it on my own btw
19:06 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> so I can code as I'm used to
19:07 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> oh, and one more thing
19:07 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> before you strated
19:07 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> before you start
19:07 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Another type of Web developer iss
19:07 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Wordpress developer
19:07 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> generally, that guy makes everything on wordpress. templates, settings, functionallity
19:08 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> and i think, wordpress guys have more orders
19:08 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> definately not my flow
19:08 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> It's most popular Web cms
19:08 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> not mine either
19:08 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> i don't like wordpress. It has very ugly code
19:11 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> btw why'd I need routing even? the webserver is pretty good at finding files 😛
19:12 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> For better SEO
19:12 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> And for better management of code
19:12 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> they will never have direct access to file
19:13 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> why not though? I see no harm in them accessing it
19:13 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> You could do things like
19:13 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> /something/:username/posts
19:13 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> without trouble
19:14 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> in parsing quaries
19:14 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> in parsing queries
19:14 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> anyway, it's standard at the moment
19:14 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> but if you want, you can use simply files
19:14 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> 😉
19:15 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> You'll have to reinvent some things, but it will works
19:15 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> very interesting stuff
19:15 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> also, before doing anything in pure php
19:15 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> learn about auto-loading classess and files
19:15 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> http://php.net/manual/en/language.oop5.autoload.php
19:16 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> btw. Composer can generate autoload class for you
19:16 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> based on composer.json configuration
19:17 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> inb4 I create the worlds biggest sql injection nest
19:38 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> @Savander how does Eloquent know which table to use?
19:38 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> It's like blackmagic
19:38 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> actually not
19:38 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> it takes class name
19:38 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> and check for plural or singular
19:39 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> you can specify which table Eloquent has to use
19:39 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> in your model class
19:39 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> public $table = "nameOfTable"
19:39 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> PHP Has cool staff, called ReflectionClass
19:39 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I'm hoping this actually is calculated beforehand
19:39 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> it can do magic
19:39 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> checking for plural singular at runtime would be funny
19:40 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> i bet it simple if, but
19:40 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> I always statically set table name
19:40 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> e.g. category->categories not categorys
19:40 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> lots of exceptions
19:40 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> It's pretty smart
19:41 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> It good in making word plular
19:41 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> in english
19:41 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> that's what worries me
19:41 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> if it's that good it probably has a database of the exceptions built in somewhere
19:41 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> probably
19:41 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> it uses Str component
19:41 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> and i think, it's external one
19:42 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> keep forgetting I'm not supposed to worry about this stuff
19:42 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> You can to :pp. You will learn how it works
19:42 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> and it's cool, isn't it?
19:42 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> I don't really like cool, I much prefer well-defined 😛
19:43 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> in C if I put an = sign I'm 100% certain what it'll do
19:43 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Right
19:44 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> in PHP you can do some magic sometimes
19:44 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> because, php allows to
19:44 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> for example, you can generate methods in fly
19:44 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> but at that point I'm also supposed to think how the language is working
19:44 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Eloquent uses it
19:44 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> with something the size of laravel it's impossible for me to keep track of it's internals
19:45 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> so I'm at some point supposed to just hope it works
19:45 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> ooh, methods on the fly sound fun
19:45 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> ^^
19:45 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> larafel is well written, you shouldn't worry
19:46 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> i think, you will know what's going on
19:46 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> after reading documentation
19:46 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> and even know, where that magic happen
19:47 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> https://github.com/doctrine/inflector/blob/master/lib/Doctrine/Common/Inflector/Inflector.php
19:48 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> That class do magic in plurarization
19:48 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> package *
19:48 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> 55 thousand lines of code in laravel 😛
19:49 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Huh, a lot
19:49 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> / 2
19:49 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> (comments)
19:49 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> i think LoC is without comments already
19:49 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> Founder like to write perfect readable code
19:49 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> and a lot of comments
19:50 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> LoC ?
19:50 <+ddnet-discord> <Learath2> lines of code
19:50 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> oh
19:50 <+ddnet-discord> <Savander> hmm, i don't know